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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just wanted to make a post on a subject about width spread in the delta. Not wanting to argue my stance on the subject, I don't think anyone will change my mind. But to have a width spread on private land hunters is uncalled for and in my opinion goes beyond the mission of managing for a healthy herd and starts to force things thats uncalled for on the hunters of this state if this was to happen. Now I don't know if this is being considered, I hear one thing and then another, so who knows. I do know one thing, if its being discussed within the commisioners I think we should be made aware of it. And there shouldn't be non-public meetings period if this is being discussed.

Now I heard and confirmed this, that a certain big name Texas biologist, had a private sit down meeting with our commissioners along with a seed company owner of this state. Now I don't know what details of what was discussed but I do know that the same biologist was promoting several idea's last summer on our advisory email list about we needed to get our buck herd in that next age bracket, and width restrictions was one thing mentioned.

Now you may ask why and how did a Private Land Texas biologist get interested in Ark state deer management and get our email addresses. And that would be a good question, and I don't know the answer. But I will say, this person promotes a foodplot seed thats produced in this state and the owner of that company is a big time trophy restriction advocate. So you draw your own conclussion on that.

I encourage all, if this is of concern to you, if it might effect you, you need to contact the commission and let them know this is not something you would want. Don't let these behind the scene meetings slip in on us and before we know it, your forced to trophy manage your own ground.

I just can't understand why folks want to push trophy management on everyone. Course if you were a foodplot seed maker, or a big land owner that you might stand to gain some more clients in guiding or raise the price of hunting land, or maybe a biologist which could gain some more business on the side, I might could see why you would want to force it on your neighbors. I guess Texas has ran out of clients. Arkansas is prime untapped ground. If you wish Ark to go down the road Texas has, before you jump on the bandwagon, first try to find a place to hunt in Texas and not pay a arm and leg to do it. Check out all their fencing operations, and guiding operations. Its total commercialism period.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Contact info for commisioners

Sonny Varnell - Chairman (2003-2008)
St. Paul, Arkansas
P.O. Box 211, St. Paul, AR 72760 - (479) 677-3225 - [email protected]

Freddie Black - Vice Chairman (2002-2009)
Lake Village , Arkansas
Simmons First, P. O. Drawer 271, Lake Village, AR 71653 - (870) 265-5366 - [email protected]

Brett Morgan (2003-2010)
Little Rock, Arkansas
10926 Plantation Lake Road, Scott, AR 72142 - (501) 961-1692 - [email protected]

Craig Campbell (2006-2011)
Little Rock, Arkansas P.O. Box 34367, Little Rock, AR 72203 - 501-377-2403 - [email protected]

George Dunklin Jr. (2005-2012)
DeWitt, Arkansas
P.O. Box 586, DeWitt, AR 72042 - (870) 946-4549 - [email protected]

Ronald Pierce (2006-2013)
Mountain Home, Arkansas 1453 CR11, Mountain Home, AR 72653 - (870) 430-5203 - [email protected]

Rick Watkins (2007-2014)
Little Rock, Arkansas P. O. Box 32050, Little Rock, AR72260 - (501) 217-7503 - [email protected]


Kimberly G. Smith (Ex-Officio)
Fayetteville, Arkansas
Chair, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Arkansas, Fayetteville, AR 72701 - [email protected]
 

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Not wanting to argue the point either. I agree with you that width restrictions are questionable regulations at best. First, the genetics of deer in some areas leans toward smaller width racks. Second, how much of a fine is worthy of being imposed for missing your measurement by an eighth of an inch or so? Bucks on parts of Camp Robinson WMA rarely get over 15 or 16 inches wide. But, they can still be huge because of their mass and tine height. So, yes, the best rule if there is a "best rule" based on antlers is one based on the number of points. Still, this is not a foolproof regulation. How many ethical hunters have shot a deer that had a point within a hair of being legal or illegal? Such regs can take the fun out of being out there. I shot a buck last year that had nice mass and above average height. He weighed within 10 or 20 pounds of the 200-pound mark. But, he was only about 15.5 inches wide. He was aged as being either 3.5 or 4.5 years old, based on difference in enamel wear from one side of the jaw to the other. He was a good buck, so I was glad to harvest him.
 

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I have one question for anyone advocating a spread rule. WHAT IS THE INSIDE SPREAD MEASUREMENT FOR THE STATE RECORD DOOLEY BUCK?(13 in.) See that's the problem with it. They'll have to also allow for a certain B&C score to also be legal which just adds more quesswork to the process. I'm going to brush up on my eyeballing measurements at a distance and my field judging scores so I can hire myself out in the years to come as a legality determiner!(if that's a word!)

Firehog, i'm sure I know the seed company owner you speak of. He was also instrumental in getting the QDMA to place a regional director(me) here in Ar. so many years ago. Of course hindsight is 20/20 and now I know why that position existed. Would you refresh me on his name?
 

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What does a width requirement have to do with age......nothing, thats what.:smack:

How many times have your heard somebody say I killed, or so-n-so killed a whatever point deer with an 18 inch spread. I'm like......"Okay.....how long were his 2's and 3's.....how bout base/mass measurements"?

I'm not on a high horse about trophy regulations either.......I like to try....key word here is try, to kill mature bucks. Lord know's I've wanted to stroke the bowstring more than one time on a buck but, looking them over I knew in my mind that they were only 2.5 yrs old. If I want meat I'll kill a doe or 2. Thats just me though. If a man wants to kill a deer that is legal and he does it within the confines of the law then who am I to say otherwise?

I don't think that width restrictions are the answer to getting the buck herd to the next age level.
 

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All good points, for sure. The thing is I don't think there is one rule or regulation that could be put in place that would be foolproof. Well, unless, you just say no one can harvest any deer. Now, wouldn't the animal rights folks love that one? Anyway, management of resources like the whitetail is just as imperfect as those who manage them - humans. A college professor once told me that we have to immerse ourselves in the equation for it to truly work. Instead of being just the stewards, we are a variable that can affect the outcome in any direction.
 

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Well, he's not the only one who remembers a certain company owner's name. How about the fact that a former agency head was one of his deer camp buddies? Sometimes, it is all about who you know. At least, that's what the ones who know those people tell me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
You can bank also if this gets pushed in the Delta, it will go state wide eventually.

Also here is a thread to refresh some of the conversations with these individuals, and remember these where through emails with the advisory team members, not a public forum.

http://www.arkansashunting.net/showthread.php?t=24964

Here is one interesting comment, just to show you the mentality behind this.

Asking opinions is especially helpful in determining what the public is
ignorant of and misinformed on. I support scientific opinion polls, but not
any form of public meeting consensus.

Managing for the approval of the ignorant is crazy. Our game department has
always looked at it politically more than from a management and educational
stand point. When you can't defend policies, discontent always
follows.Political decisions can't be defended.

Fact is, we have a large portion of hunters that only want to kill a deer
or any buck with no consideration of the herd.

Probably there is enough of these types to destroy what little progress has
been made if they are turned loose again.

Quality management involves proper sex ratios and age structure. If this
type management is implemented throughout the delta, we can expect all
hunters to have a chance for a quality buck as well as a quality experience.

I have little tolerance for those who have no interest in proper management.
That means they are hunting for selfish purposes and either need an attitude
change or be removed from our ranks
. These are usually the types we refer to
as trespassers and poachers.

Turning in thugs and prosecuting all trespassers by legitimate hunters stops
this. Wildlife officers have to have our
help.

The three point rule has been successful because it has forced and inspired
thousands of Arkansas hunters to learn something about deer management. This
is why it has been the most popular game regulation ever enacted.

I predict finishing the job by implementing real quality management on every
acre of the Delta including the Federal Refuges
that have always had no
legitimate deer management whatsoever.

I am willing to study any alternative that can be backed up with sound
scientific and proven management tecniques.

I hope everyone does their best to be objective in this endeavor.

Best Regards

John Butler
Remember also we have a 5 day gun season in one part of the delta and a 7 day in the rest. Except for a small portion in the bottom half. And this still is not enough. Sorry but I don't need anymore restrictions.
 

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John Butler, if you happen to read this, you are the defintion of dipstick. The quote below explains why. In reality by proper management you mean the management scheme that meets your requirements. It's not that simple. It would do a better service to the hunting population if the segment you belong to had an attitude change or were removed from our ranks. So, since you have a different opinion on what proper management is then I can consider you a tresspasser and a poacher?

your words.
"I have little tolerance for those who have no interest in proper management.
That means they are hunting for selfish purposes and either need an attitude
change or be removed from our ranks. These are usually the types we refer to
as trespassers and poachers."

One more thing, I HOPE YOU FAIL!
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
A exerpt from one conversation on Ark deer management.

As you pointed out, big landowners can manage their deer. But, unfortunately, we sometimes have to protect small landowners from themselves! They all believe they have the right to kill a buck, and I agree. But, how many bucks should a fellow who has 20 acres be able to kill? And, whose bucks is he killing? In such cases, I believe size limits can help reduce the pressure on bucks.--Dr. Kroll
What are we protecting from themselves? And is it me or is he eluding that a small acreage owner should have a lower limit on deer?

Anyways, this is the guy who had a private sit down meeting with our commissioners to talk about deer management. Do you think we are entitled to know what was discussed, if it pertained to deer management?
 

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A exerpt from one conversation on Ark deer management.



What are we protecting from themselves? And is it me or is he eluding that a small acreage owner should have a lower limit on deer?

Anyways, this is the guy who had a private sit down meeting with our commissioners to talk about deer management. Do you think we are entitled to know what was discussed, if it pertained to deer management?
you are damn right we have the right to know. I'd also like to know how much he was paid for that sit down meeting! I can answer a couple of his questions for him with no problem.
1. A small land owner should be able to kill a legal limit and everyone who he allows to hunt there should be allowed a legal limit if possible. Very much pressure on that area will probably not allow an over harvest of deer. WE HAVE NO FENCES OR OWNERSHIP OF DEER HERE!! If you own 1000 acres next to my 20 and don't want me killing deer on my property then put up a fence or do more to keep them on your side of the line!
2. He's killing the states deer unlike in texas where alot of people OWN (or fence) the deer.
 

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Someone explain just how you equate "spread" restrictions to "trophy management". For the life of me, I find little or no relationship, when taken at first step.. face value.

A 12" spread OR a total of 8 points would work in the GCP to provide added protection for yearling bucks while allowing those state record non typical 8-or-better to be shot...even if they were 10" spread.:rolleyes:

At least this is a great lead in to "Be careful what you ask for" when a new and improved(???) Deer Management Plan is proposed....Duh...:rolleyes:

All of a sudden...we don't like the secrecy part of G&F management!!! Wake up AMERICA.

Also I dislike bashing/name calling of a member of this board, who is entitled to his opinion...and I can safely say that if it was me doing the bashing...I would receive a stiff reprimand...
 

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Hey odocoi, why don't you answer my first question in my previous post...?

It actually has a tie in to this threads topic.:rolleyes:
 

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Also I dislike bashing/name calling of a member of this board, who is entitled to his opinion...and I can safely say that if it was me doing the bashing...I would receive a stiff reprimand...
would da widdle guy like a tissue? A stiff reprimand may be in order and I hope you took it upon yourself to pm the proper authorities to make sure you weren't the only one getting in trouble on here. Have you ever name called or bashed on here?
 

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Figures you'd cop out on it. Wonder why with this guy you don't have an opinion?
Not that I owe you, in particular, an opinion on an opinion of another member...but I would think that if you took the time to do some comprehensive research on me stating such "opinions", you would find very, very few opinions that I offer up.

Ninety nine percent of my statements on deer management are NOT opinions(never have been) but are statements that can be directly attributed to some viable source/research...by links.

Now you are more informed.:wink:
 
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