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Discussion in 'Huntin' Dogs' started by Nighthawk, Oct 5, 2011.
Help me out houndsmen whats the difference?
Walker is the breed of the dog and foxhound just means that's what they are bred to run foxhound is usually a walker, July or half breed that run fox or coyotes
Here is some history of the running breeds.
There are a number of different strains in existence today that are recognized as American Foxhounds. The most popular is the Walker, followed by July, Trigg, Calhoun, Hudspeth and Goodman. The Walker, Goodman and Trigg strains can all be traced to Madison County, Kentucky and a stolen hound called Tennessee Lead. According to legend, this hound was stolen out of a deer chase in Tennessee a few miles south of Albany, Kentucky by a trader in November 1852. This trader carried this rat-tailed, tight-haired black and tan hound to Madison County where he was sold to George Washington (Wash) Mauphin. The origin and breeding of this hound is unknown, but because of his speed and ability to run a red fox, he was used extensively at stud. His get were crossed on imported hounds from England, native Kentucky, Maryland and Birdsong hounds from Georgia. Out of these crosses came the three major strains: Walker, Trigg and July. Tennessee Lead can be found approximately 30 or so generations back in many modern AKC Walker-origin showhound lineages. However, probably the most influential and more modern foxhound sire represented in many Walker-origin 10 generation showhound pedigrees is CH Kentucky Lake Bugle Boy, who is back about 7-9 generations from current day hounds and about 22 generations more recent than Lead.
The Walker strain was first known as Mauphin hounds in Kentucky, but Wash Mauphin, while breeding some wonderful hounds, failed to keep many records. It was left to the Walker brothers to use a careful method of breeding and record keeping on the Mauphin hounds. This led to great results. They shipped a large number of hounds to Texas shortly after the Civil War, and it was there that this strain was first called Walkers. This name soon moved eastward and was forever accepted as designated name for the strain when published in the Red Ranger Stud Book. A high level of gameness and endurance characterized this strain.
The Trigg strain was founded by Col. Haiden Trigg of Kentucky. His aim was to breed a hound with a good coarse voice; black, white and tan blanket-backed; with white points. He crossed Walkers, July, Birdsong and other strains to arrive at his ideal foxhound. After his death, the strain decreased in popularity, but in recent years, has made a strong comeback and is quite popular today. They have big voices and are close track runners.
The July strain came into prominence in Georgia. This strain was preceded by the Birdsong Hounds, native Georgia Hounds, the Henry Hounds from Virginia and Maryland hounds from Howard County, Maryland. In 1858, Mr. Nimrod Gosnell shipped a male hound to Colonel Miles G. Harris of Sparta, Georgia. This hound was named July for the month in which he arrived. This hound was outstanding and others of this strain were imported. July was crossed on the Birdsong and Henry Hounds. George J. Garrett, Col. Gil F. Birdsong, Miles G. Harris and Capt. Dick Baxter were probably the founding breeders of this strain. At one time, this strain was called July-Maryland. This strain, as exists today, is different in conformation from the Walker Hounds.
The running walkers are all kin to the treeing walkers way back. Started by george washington maupin and the walker family of kentucky back in the 1800's.
There are strains,or off shots of what the walker boys were breeding, that are recognized as TRIGG, GOODMan, Hudspeth,etc,etc, all fall into the American Foxhound Categorie.
I believe Lester Nance wrote a book on the history of the treeing walker , In the beggining they took foxhounds that would tree and kinda went from there.
Even today some foxhounds will tree, My buddy has one that was used strictly for bobcat and greyfox down in georgia and he will tree and stay treed. We got him cause he was throwing puppies that can flat boogie on a coyote. He hasnt forgot how to run one either! Rex is right, alot of the older hounds that couldnt stay in a race would fall off and start treeing tree game. This was happening years and years before anyone was trying to start a treeing walker breed.
Even today, there are alot of cat hunters that use running walkers or triggs or goodmans, either fullblooded or crossed on something to keep the track speed and nose.
As far as looks, the julys have a kinda shaggier coat of hair, they come in red, white, brindle, Heck i've even seen lemon and white, red and white ones, and fawn colored ones.
The Running walkers, come in red, white, red and white, lemon and white, brown and white, tri- colored, black and white, black and tan, which most black and tan foxhounds are the old time black and tan saddleback color, not as black as the coonhounds, and alot of the solid red hounds will have white feet, and alot of the black and tan foxhounds will have white feet also, really good looking dogs. height and weight vary from bloodline to bloodline. Usually 23" to 27" tall, really deep chested(LUNG CAPACITY) usually a shorter ear than the coonhounds, but have seen several good running hounds that could pass for tree stock.
Englishdawgs, you are a wealth of information. I mean that as a compliment.
even if he does like them English mutts he does have lots of good reading. Sure makes deer hunting better
Wow thanks Englishdawgs so from the material so how do you know a treeing walker from a running walker I am just curious which to cross on a cur dog to get more speed bottom and endurance. Seems like the running walker is the obvious choice.
Today the running and treein walkers are considered totally different breeds. The treein walker is usually more stoke build.
I screwed all tha up lol my mind was moving faster than my fingers . So a running walker would be the best bet for crossing to a cur for hogs.
I am not a breeder but the running walker would for sure but more speed and stanima into the mix. I know that is way is why the deer doggers around here cross running walkers and beagles so they can get a dog that is fast and has the ability to run all day but with out the size of the running walker hound. With that all the coonhound breeds have the speed and stanima as well they just also carry the treeng traits that set them apart. So if you crossed a treeing hound on your curs if the cur had a the treeing traits as well you might get dogs that had rather tree than run game.
I'll put in my two cents worth and hopefully give a little food for thought regarding the running dog X cur dog cross. I am 64 years old, hog hunt with dogs now and have for about 5 years, and I love it. That being said though, with the exception of dogfighting, I love watching most any kind of dog doing what it was bred to do, whether hog dog, running dog, bird dog, stock dog......whatever. I have 5 dogs that will bay a hog, but I would not say they were top hands by any means,in fact I know they are not, but I still enjoy them. My hunting buddies have some better dogs and although we don't have a lot of hogs around here we still catch a few. I did, however, keep, hunt, and breed running hounds for nearly thirty years, mostly Walkers, but had a few Julys also. I deer hunted them a little, and field trialed quite a bit, but most of what I did with them was just go out at night, turn them loose, hope they would find a red fox or coyote, and listen to the music. I know a lot of folks don't understand it, but it IS music. Having been around hunting dogs all my life I don't think there's any doubt that a running hound can pursue a hot track with more speed, precision and endurance than any other type of dog. Tree hounds are right there too, but I believe as a whole the running bred hounds can take a track faster and further than any other. The problem with running hounds is that they may not have enough "fight" in them. The dogs my father and grandfather had were fox hounds and rarely caught their game. They were not bred to fight. They were bred for beautiful mouths (voices), speed (a dog that could not keep up was not well thought of), and gameness (endurance), a dog that would quit a race before it was over was a cull no matter how long the race. When coyotes started being common in our country in the early seventies our dogs didn't know what to do when the coyotes would give up and stop to fight. A 30 pound coyote with every hair standing on end and teeth bared was not something they were often willing to take on. They would usually not even bay, just wait for the rascal to take off again, or leave and try to find another. Now the boys out in Oklahoma and Kansas where the coyotes had been around forever were breeding some hounds that would sure 'nuf take one on, especially if they had run it a while and got their blood up. Some of the dogs they had were natural born fighters, but many of them if not trained with older, experienced dogs were not too keen to get in a fight. When I quit keeping running dogs about 15 years ago we had begun to get a few dogs that would put it on a sassy coyote, but they were still the exception rather than the rule. Seems like it was hard to get speed, good mouth, grit, and that all important endurance in the same package. It has been my experience that you can breed the best to the best and still most of the pups will not live up to their parents abilities. But, like I said, I have been away from the running dogs for several years and there may very well be more running hounds now that are willing to put their teeth in their game. Also, if bred to a gritty cur of some kind it might......might put more grit/bay/fight in them. Also, running dogs are bred to bark and bark a lot, the more the better, as long as they are smelling their game and not just babbling. If you want silent trailing/running hog dogs then crossing with running dogs might not work. IF.....IF the cross worked like we would hope then you would have a dog that would cover more territory hunting than most curs, would have a better nose than a cur, and could drive his game farther at speed than most curs. And, especially if it were shut mouthed, you should get more hogs bayed/found than a straight cur would. I would not, however, bet very much that this would be the case........you just never can tell. Still, if you could find the right running hound it might be worth a try??? There may be lots, but I don't know anyone who hog hunts running dogs, or running dog crosses, so that might tell you something. Well, hope I haven't been too long winded for ya'll, and maybe the info will be of some use. Good hunting.
wow sleepy, sounds like you know your dogs. I am friends with a guy that uses redbones as hogdogs he would rather here the race than catch a hog then again he is 75 and has forgot more about hunting than any of the people getting into it now will ever learn. My friend says if your gonna put hound it should be tree dogs or big game bred dogs because they are gritty. I know some guys that are crossing a treeing walker with cur females and the pups are finding hogs at 6 and 8 months. may be this will help
I haven't read all the posts, but it seems like many good posts have been posted on this subject. The problem is often slang, and a lack of proper terminology. Plott hounds are the only tree stock not bred off the foxhounds.
Foxhounds or running walkers do not typically have the grit, are not as stocky, and are bred for endurance to run.
The quote above is not exactly accurate around here, beagles and walkers are crossed to reduce the speed in a walker. Often more leg or more push is needed out of a beagle, but they do not want an all day run out of the country type of dog like the walker. They usually try to keep the height under 18 inches to run in some of the field trials. These dogs are fast, don't get me wrong, but a good walker will leave them by ten minutes or more. I had a gyp that would distance a beagle walker many claimed would keep up with a walker. I have counted as many as ten minutes between her and them. Certain lines of beagles have certain traits that are often bred into them, just as july walkers are different than say big city houston walkers.
I had a man call me up and cuss walkers the other night. He said he would never own one, and that he despised them. The funny thing is my dogs always lead the packs, always jump, and are consistently on the kills. His dogs well, I won't go there. To each his own, but many lines of foxhounds in these parts are bred specifically for deer, and have taken on their own specific traits. These dogs take to deer much more naturally than fox. Often the reverse is true for a really good strain of fox hound. I have a dog or two that will not even touch a fox.
My lines are 21-23 inches. I like 21 inches as they are a good handling height. Just enough leg to get through swamps, and not too much to get hung up in thick cuts. Some guys breed dogs upwards of 28"!!! These things are massive. I had a 25" dog and he was consistently slower than my 21" hounds until they hit deep water.
R&R kennels You are alittle off on your info as well the Plott hound was not a tree dog to begin with it was used in Germany for wild boar and later in America on bear. All the ones I have seen in the coonhound world needed to be left in the bay dog world. They were way to Gritty for coonhounds. Your are right however they did not come from the english foxhounds. But also neither did the bluetick fully they do have foxhound ancestors but they also carry the blood of French hounds. The French Gascogne, Porcelaine, and Saintongeois had been used in Africa for many many years to tree leopards before there was any coonhounds even thought about. Coonhound history tells use that a bluetick colored dog was the first known Coonhound so to speak in America.
I do however thank you for correcting me on the Beagle/Walker crosses. What you said is what I was trying to say it just didnt quit come out that way.
Not entirely. Remember, plotts are the state dog of NC.
In 1750, the two young Plott brothers left Germany and immigrated to America with five Hanoverian Hounds. One brother died during the voyage, but the other settled in North Carolina, raised a family and bred his dogs. Over the next 200 years, the Plott descendents were mountain men who used their dogs to hunt bear and boar. The dogs became known by the family name and were referred to as the Plotts’ hounds.
No different than foxhounds evolving into treeing walkers.
I know guys that run nothing other than plotts on bears. They are not as popular in coon hunting, they are a rarer breed often. Those that hunt them swear by them. Me personally I think they are consistently a better tree dog than many other breeds.
Interesting reading here guys I have a 1/2 Walker 1/2 Catahoula she is around 11 months old now she is off a Walker they called Highbawl he was according to others a awesome hog dog I have had her in a pen a few times and she is gritty trying to catch when the hog runs I think she will make a dog if I can get her on some hogs in the woods. She is trashy on deer and will at time go way out and hunt I am not sure if her sire was a treeing Walker or running walker but I do believe because the limited amount of hogs in my area I have to increase the range and nose in my dogs. So far she only barks if she is behind a running hog I have always owned curs and new to the hounds but I think with the right mix they can add alot to a hog dog.She looks just like a plott even the vet thought she was full plott.
HUH? Friend, im not sure where you are getting your hounds, but i promise you that i have American Foxhounds that pack more grit in their tail's than any Treeing Walker. I have owned plenty of treeing walkers in my time, so this isnt a assumption. The problem is when people make the wrong crosses, they lose grit. I dont know of many Tree hounds that will catch a coyote by its self. Just because a dog is short and fat doesnt mean its made to fight! I will cull the fastest dog in the country if it wont pull fur.
This is What a Foxhound is supposed to look like!
This guy is not as flashy, but sure gets the job done! Takes some grit to catch and kill a yote that size by his self!
Jesse them are some good lookin Foxhounds is the white one full blood running walker or is he another breed of fox hound. I am not a running dog man so no clue. I Do agree with the tree dog part. Most tree dogs are not to gritty there are ones that are though. I would have to say out of the hound consider tree dogs the Plott or leapord tree hound are the best choices if one wants grit all the ones I have seen were mean as hell.
The white one looks like it may have some Casper in it.