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The following ideas are not new and for the most part they have been discussed before. However I want to try to put these ideas in perspective based on my experience with the dog problem and argue that deer dogs must be made illegal in Arkansas. :thumb:

The primary basis for this argument is that hunting territories have decreased in size to the point that most hunters no longer have enough acreage to run dogs. Walkers are still used to chase deer when most people with walking around sense know that these long legged dogs chase deer over many miles and are absolutely going to trespass every time they are released. Walker dogs will blow through ones property and may or may not return that day, but if you see the deer in front of them it will often be going fast with its tongue hanging out. Very often dog owners place radio collars on these dogs because they know they run for miles and by using radio collars they can be located after the deer is shot or after the dogs bay it in a pond some place. If you see a dog with a radio collar then you know that the owner is aware his dog is going to trespass. Smaller dogs also run long distances and they also trespass but they are slower running and are likely to run on your property longer. But, the argument is that even if the hunters tried to control their dogs, regardless of size, they can not do so. They can do better than they are doing now but in the end we must admit that most hunting territories are too small for running dogs and the dog hunters are not physically capable of keeping their dogs on these smaller territories. The solution to this issue is for AGFC to close all zones to dog deer hunting. An alternative solution is to issue a revocable annual permit to those hunters that have enough acreage to accommodate running dogs. If the club with the dog running permit later finds that they cannot control their dogs and AGFC receives complaints then the permit would be revoked.

Running dogs are used by their owners as a tool to siphon deer off everyone else’s property. Normal deer movements are from heavier densities to lower densities but the unscrupulous dog guy takes this to another level by turning their dogs loose on public or private ground where they know they will run onto adjacent posted property, jump a deer, and bring that deer off where it can be legally shot. A tiny piece of public land will always afford dog deer hunters a staging area for this practice. The solution to this problem is for AGFC to close all public land to dog deer hunting. If AGFC chooses to allow dog deer hunting on large stand alone tracts of public land then the same revocable permit could be utilized.

Running dogs are thrown out at strategic spots on public roads and left to walk across posted property where they are expected to jump a deer. Once jumped, the deer runs all over the place and eventually onto places where the trespasser can legally shoot the deer. I believe releasing deer dogs onto public roads for this purpose is illegal now but it is unlikely that it is ever enforced. Primarily because it is nearly impossible to catch these individuals releasing dogs and once released the same old excuses are given. So again there is no consequence for the dog runner’s illegal actions. The solution to this problem, as recommended before, is in AGFC making running dogs illegal for deer hunting. An alternative partial solution is in AGFC issuing the revocable permit. The first option is preferred but the alternative solution would be a welcomed first step.

Trespassing deer dogs make it impossible to do deer herd management on small parcels of private land. Natural deer movements on small to moderate sized parcels make it difficult but when dog deer hunters are present it is even more so. The solution to the seining and siphoning practiced by these group hunters for the entire duration of the hunt is to make the use of dogs illegal.

Running deer with dogs is, in my view a barbaric and subhuman practice from the past that places all hunters in a very bad light. Seeing a deer chased till its tongue is hanging out will truly make you think about what we as hunters have in our midst. It is even more disgusting when your daughter tells you that the trespassing hounds came by her stand and that the deer being chased had their tongues hanging out. Or when the wife reports that the dogs running all over our property that morning chased the deer through our yard and that the deer’s tongue was hanging out. I personally (as a hunter) find this so offensive that this alone is more than enough reason to outlaw deer dogs. What would the national news media do with a video of such a hunting spectacle? The best solution to this problem is for AGFC to make it illegal to use deer dogs for hunting deer in Arkansas. A stopgap partial solution to this problem would be to make it illegal to use deer dogs larger than small beagles.

There are other reasons to discontinue using dogs to hunt deer and many of you can list them. I will try to when I get the time. But these are a few key things to ponder and I hope you will. For you dog guys that may want to take issue with my comments---I don’t mind scratching up the ground but I hope you will rationally respond as that will be your best shot.:wink:
 

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You should honestly give up deer hunting yourself if you are that concerned about the welfare of the deer. Unless every deer you have shot over the years was INSTANTLY dead then you've caused suffering yourself. Are you going to break deer hunting down into different categories according to the amount of suffering involved? I agree that those that trespass are very much in the wrong but using the suffering of the deer just goes against all hunting for all species.
Oh yea, I DON'T HUNT WITH DOGS FOR DEER! I have once with a friend and had a good time. I just grew up in an area where dogs weren't used.
 

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This is a Forum for hunters to build unity, and not bash the way others are hunting, we get enough of that from the PETA groups. so please stop trying to cause havoc between the hunters, that are trying to keep all hunting from being demolished and taken away from us.

we should all stay band together to keep hunting a Arkansas tradition.
 

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Just make the national forest the only place deer dogs are allowed since that's where the largest blocks of non-private land are located. :thumb:
 

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Just make the national forest the only place deer dogs are allowed since that's where the largest blocks of non-private land are located. :thumb:
I disagree with making NF the only place to run dogs. The NF are abused enough with deer dogs year around. It would be nice to be able to take your children to the NF and have a peacable deer hunt (or turkey hunt) without the barking of hounds, the deer dog hunters racing down the NF roads trying to cut the dogs off, and the shooting from the road that most of these guys do ever year. These are the things that happen regulary in the Ouachita NF in my area. If any place should remain legal to run dogs it should be big leases where there is enough land to keep their dogs on the lease, but if they can not keep them on their property then they should lose the right to run dogs.

Alot of people keep saying we should not bring this stuff up and should just get along with the dog hunters. I say we need to solve this problem between hunters and the alternative that Mainbeam listed are good ones. Deer dog hunters are going to have to change their old ways of "I will run my dogs where ever I want too" or lose the privilage of running dogs.

LC
 

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Guys I looked at Mainbeams profile and he says he is a wildlife official which could mean he is a officer. I think that he may be trying express a view from the state but that is just a guess. As a ex dog runner myself I can certianly understand the views of non dog hunters. In the real world you will not catch your hounds 100% of the time. With leases as they are today most hunters can afford less land due to prices ever increasing on a yearly basis which really means less land to hunt unless you really have deep pockets. The only comment to you Mainbeam that there are a few dog runners that do try to be respectful. Although I no longer run dogs I would hate to see this sport come to an end. DW
 

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We only have 700ac we lease and have 2 others around us of about 1500ac.The other leases do run dogs sometimes we do not allow dogs.I have found that when they run dogs they push more deer onto our lease,sometimes their dogs will come on our lease but not often.The dogs we have problems with are NON HUNTING dogs from some of the homes around our lease.They chase about anything and have blown 3 good hunts for me this year.I hunted for many years growing up in a camp that ran dogs, and for a kid it was a blast and loved it.Dogs should not be illegal but I agree that you should have enough land to run them.Maybe they should have certain days to run them.Maybe no dogs 1st 3 days of season then everyother weekend during season so everyone would have a chance to enjoy their style of hunting????
 

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We only have 700ac we lease and have 2 others around us of about 1500ac.The other leases do run dogs sometimes we do not allow dogs.I have found that when they run dogs they push more deer onto our lease,sometimes their dogs will come on our lease but not often.The dogs we have problems with are NON HUNTING dogs from some of the homes around our lease.They chase about anything and have blown 3 good hunts for me this year.I hunted for many years growing up in a camp that ran dogs, and for a kid it was a blast and loved it.Dogs should not be illegal but I agree that you should have enough land to run them.Maybe they should have certain days to run them.Maybe no dogs 1st 3 days of season then everyother weekend during season so everyone would have a chance to enjoy their style of hunting????
That has been one of the best ideas I have heard in a long time. Thanks for that input. Like you we have more problems from pets instead of deer dogs. I have had to pick up three fawns that was killed by the neighbors pets this year alone in a one month span. DW
 

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This is a Forum for hunters to build unity, and not bash the way others are hunting, we get enough of that from the PETA groups. so please stop trying to cause havoc between the hunters, that are trying to keep all hunting from being demolished and taken away from us.

we should all stay band together to keep hunting a Arkansas tradition.
busterb, while that may be true we as hunters also need to look at things from all perspectives. There is three groups of concern here the hunter's, the Anti-hunting and the non-hunting population. The non-hunting population is the segment we need to be the most concerned about in my opinion because while they may not hunt they most likely don't care that we do and are the largest of the three groups. We don't need to do stuff that could possibly sway them toward the anti's side and with more of the non-hunters moving to more rural areas they see more of our activities than ever before. Do they need to see truck loads of hunters running up and down the roads trying to cut dogs off? Do they need to see the occasional hunter stop and shoot off the road? Do they need to see deer ran across their property with it's "tongue hanging out"? I'd have to answer all them questions with a, NO. But that is what's happening in more and more rural areas, these people are moving out and buying 5-10 acre and even sometimes large tracts of land and that's exactly what they are seeing and the scenario's of my question's continuously get worse as the countryside gets broke into more and more sections of privately owned land. So yes we need to use this and other sites similar to this to build hunter unity. We need to unite to cast a better light on our sport of hunting, not just deer hunting but all hunting. I don't nessacarily agree with a complete ban on deer dogs but I wouldn't mind seeing something along the lines of what Mainbeam suggested, issue a revocable annual permit to those hunters that have enough acreage to accommodate running dogs.
 

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I doubt very seriously that a ban on deer dog hun ting in Arkansas will cause all forms of hunting w/dogs to be discontinued. As a matter of fact; banning the practice in Ar. does not have an appreciable effect on dog/deer hunting in the rest of the states. I know that to ride a M/C in California, you absolutely must wear a helmet....in Arkansas, you may ride without if you are 18 or older....so, if any state is gonna wag the dog, it'll be California.....but so far they can't wag Arkansas. I would suggest anyone who would be upset if Ar. bans doghunting for deer; try hunting this way in some other state.:wink:
 

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Mainbeam

I am with you.I believe that deer cannot go through their natural breeding process if they have dogs chasing them day and night.It doesnt promote a healthy population of deer.I dont believe that hunters using dogs to hunt deer can shoot adeer in the vitals half the time,resulting in lots of bad shots and inhumane kills.Some of which i have seen myself.Hard to kill a deer if its shot in the hindquarters.I dont enjoy having dogs run under my treestand either.I have seen deerdogs chasing deer on my lease out of season also.Someone had conveniently taken their collars off.There should be alaw to prosecute dog owners for dog trespassing,that would stop it.There are too many loopholes in the laws.
 

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I think the real "Arkansas Deer Dog Problem" is deer season ain't long enough because as soon as modern gun season is over and it is too cold to bow hunt this same stuff starts....every year...until deer season comes in again.

good luck with the arguing
luke:thumb:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Odocoi

My profile is 60 years of hunting with my first memory being that I was taken coon hunting by my father (I was five years old) and later squirrel hunting with my father. A dog was used in both cases. And I have basically hunted everything in Arkansas except elk. We always had dogs on the porch when I was growing up. As a kid I always had a squirrel dog and I hunted squirrels out of season. I now have a rather large collection of small deer antlers, a couple of scrawny mule deer antlers, a scrawny elk antler and a really good bear skin. So no, I do not represent PETA and I don’t plan to stop hunting. But I do have great respect for the deer and they deserve better than having a pack of Purina fed walkers pull them down in a water hole. I may make a bad shot someday but it will never be intentional as is the case when walkers are released by the dog deer hunter.

I know a few AGFC employees and all of them know first hand what problems deer dogs cause but I do not know what official stand they are going to take on any issue. The wildlife officer that I visited with a month ago said he gets a dog trespass complaint virtually every day. :mad: So, I expect they feel as strongly as I do but I don’t know that. The dog lobby has always been a factor they have to consider.

However, my profile is not the issue. The appropriateness of dog deer hunting today is the issue. But now you may have a better understand of my credibility on this issue
 

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I have a little more to add.I live near a wma that allows running deer dogs.I used to hunt there some myself. I dont anymore.I hunt on leased land now.Dogs are not allowed on this wma for the first week of mg season,to allow real hunters a chance to hunt in peace.Most hunters dont want to hunt there anyway after the dogrunning starts.It is so bad,if you dont get run over by hunters trying to head off their dogs.You could get shot,seriously. Its that bad.Im talking about driving 70 mph on a wma gravel road.I know some of the people doing this.I heard a true story of 2 separate groups of hunters dogs running 2 separate deer.Anyway,the deer crossed the road at almost the same time.the hunters were so excited about the deerthat they didnt realize they were shooting at each other.I was told about bullets whizzing by their heads.If that wont break you,nothing will!This is very dangerous way to hunt.I work with a woman that told me about her husband and her son-in-law hit each other in their trucks.They drove around acurve from opposite directions.They totaled-out both trucks.I have reported this type of behavior to the local wo,but that didnt do any good.Most people just give up and let them the entire 18,000 acres to themselves.Its not worth getting hurt or killed.
 

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Just make the national forest the only place deer dogs are allowed since that's where the largest blocks of non-private land are located. :thumb:
No way , lets make them stay on private. We can't have a good hunt for the ATV's and dogs now. tHE IRRESPONSIBLE DOG RUNNERS run them almost all year here.:mad:
 

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Discussion Starter #16
10pointman

You are exactly right. These guys will destroy a piece of public ground. They will chase out or kill every single deer on a little piece of ground and during the rest of the season they will make a drive every day or so hoping to find a buck moving through looking for a doe. That is how they siphon and sein a piece of posted ground.
 

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I know this year that while bow and ML hunting this year I saw 5-7 deer every day. I saw a little yearling doe on the first morning of gun season and she was quickly run off by dogs. That was the last deer I saw on that stand.:mad:
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Stray dogs do run deer and they can be destructive but a stray is at a greater disadvantage when trying to catch a deer than the Purina fed walkers. Strays have to scrap for a living as does the deer. Walkers are fed high protein dog food and lie up and rest while the deer is chased all season and must try to get enough to eat each day. Walkers routinely run down and kill foxes and coyotes so common logic tells me what impact they have on the deer. I have never personally seen a walker dog kill a deer but two summers ago I saw a deer being chased across a field and when it crossed the road in front of me it was obvious that the deer was in stress shock. It hit the fence on the opposite side of the road and fell back in the ditch kicking. The end of a fine race. This happened in front of a house so I did not hang around to get the dog owners name.

But again, the real issue is that deer dogs are no longer compatable with society or other hunters because they do not control their dogs.
 
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