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Moderator/smokepole pimp
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I think the lasers are not only a great crutch for those of us with failing eyes, but they're also a great training tool, as well. :biggrin:

After ensuring that the weapon is empty and safe, have the trainee practice keeping the dot on target while dry firing. If they can keep the dot steady and on target while the trigger breaks, then they'll probably do well with live ammo. Just like John said, though, it does magnify involuntary movement, and makes us look as shaky as we really are. :smack:

I'm thinking about Crimson Trace grips for my wife's SP101 revolver. In a defensive situation, the laser could serve as a translator-- doesn't matter what language the bad guy speaks, they get the message when they see that little dot on their own center of mass...:eek:
 

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My dad actually has a laser/tactical light combo he is wanting to sell. I think its pretty nice but I don't have anything it will fit.......sure wish I did though!
 

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I got to thinking about this one, and the only drawbacks to using laser sights are that they cost a lot (probably will come down, though), they give away your position in a defensive situation, and they rely on batteries. All minor points, except for the price thing. Oh, and some models like crimson trace have the laser offset from the bore of the barrel quite a bit, which could cause some "parallax" issues where the dot and the POI are in two different places depending on range. But I still want one!
 

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Just remember this...the longer the shot...the harder it will be to hold the target......out to about 35/40 yards it's not too much trouble to hit a target if you hold to center mass.....but if you want surgical accuracy; you'll need a tripod or at least bipod as well!:wink:
 

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Just remember this...the longer the shot...the harder it will be to hold the target......out to about 35/40 yards it's not too much trouble to hit a target if you hold to center mass.....but if you want surgical accuracy; you'll need a tripod or at least bipod as well!:wink:

Heck John, I probably couldn't hit someone at 35\40 yds. with or without a laser sight, and if I'm shooting at someone farther than that I prabably have bigger problems than worrying about what sight I'm using.:thumb:
 

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Heck John, I probably couldn't hit someone at 35\40 yds. with or without a laser sight, and if I'm shooting at someone farther than that I prabably have bigger problems than worrying about what sight I'm using.:thumb:
:fit: :up:
 

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I got to thinking about this one, and the only drawbacks to using laser sights are that they cost a lot (probably will come down, though), they give away your position in a defensive situation, and they rely on batteries. All minor points, except for the price thing. Oh, and some models like crimson trace have the laser offset from the bore of the barrel quite a bit, which could cause some "parallax" issues where the dot and the POI are in two different places depending on range. But I still want one!

If your talking about a self defence gun the parallax shouldn't be an issue. We're talking 3-10 yards here in the vast majority of situations. At that range your only talking an inch or two.
 

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If your talking about a self defence gun the parallax shouldn't be an issue. We're talking 3-10 yards here in the vast majority of situations. At that range your only talking an inch or two.
At that range I can hit with my eyes shut. If you wait till you see the red dot on your intended target.....you may be dead.:wink: Practice the "quick-kill" method it may just save your life!:cool:
 

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Everybody's made some good points here. One thing I forgot about, and it's probably the most important thing-- Laser sights make you keep your eyes focused on the target/threat, NOT the iron sights. And like John said, for life-or death situations, we should be practicing "reflexive" shooting, where you're looking over the top of the pistol and keeping your eyes on the threat. You simply watch where the bullets impact and make adjustments. It takes a bit of practice. At self-defense ranges you ain't got time to aim anyhoo. Sort of a "point and click" interface type of deal. :biggrin:

Watch Jerry Miculek when he's doing the 3 yard speed revolver thingy. His bullets hit all over the target, but they all hit, and it happens really fast. No, he's not lining the sights up, he's just pointing. Now at longer ranges, he does appear to be using the sights. I think he told me he goes through something like a quarter million rounds a year in competition and practice :eek:

It also helps that his father in law is Les Baer, too!
 

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Glad you corrected that.... and not to cause an arguement but Jerry will tell you he indexes the sights regardless of range! MAybe not a fine sight picture, but he uses the front sight for everything he shoots. Even when he "doubles" with the two .38's on the speed plate. If you look closely you'll see the cant to the guns so that he can gt some degree of visual acquistion of the sights. Maybe he preaches different techniques in different venues....

As far as the whole laser issue is concerned. No laser will correct bad trigger control, it also won't identify a target, and in daylight even up close and personal where folks claim they can't miss (more on that another day) you may not be able to see the laser at all. If you use the laser as a "crutch" to good shooting skill I fear you will be very disappointed. However they are excellent training tools to gain good trigger control. That laser will point out every flaw in your trigger manipulation!!!

Now, if you just got to put something on your defensive weapon how about a white-light? The M3 or TLR-1, or even the TLR-2 if you just have to have a laser... are all very good lights. Ditto for anything that says SureFire on it.

A white light can help ID a threat from your wife coming down the hall, or your teenage son/daughter sneaking in a window after curfew!!! A white light of proper lumen output is actually a viable defensive tool in it's own right. 80 lumens of light directed to the face, in an otherwise low light arena; WILL divert the eyes of your assailant, maybe only briefly, but I'll take any time I can get. Under extreme duress where fine motor skills are already blown, at ranges under seven yards most white lights will print a relatively tight "hot-spot" on a threat... your rounds should strike within that hot-spot as long as you have decent trigger control... note I said decent! If you jerk, smash and otherwise disrupt the entire fire sequence; nothing is going to prevent your rounds from missing the threat. So the light acts as a "laser" of sorts in directing your rounds should you be unable to use a solid position or are forced to fire from an unorthodox postiton if you become injured or simply have to fight it out at XCQ while on the move!

Though they do eat batteries, for most folks that will be a very moot point. I have two weps lights that feed on 3v lithium batteries. One of them gets used nearly daily, the other for a few hours each month. But all of these uses are normally very brief in duration. A few seconds here another few there... very little long term "on". I may need to replace batteries every six months!

Since I also have several hand held lights (two is one...one is none. Reckon where that came from??) that I actually use and carry everywhere I go, I keep a good supply of batteries on hand and spares in all my vehicles. Botac.com has 50pks on sale for $39+/- plus shipping right now. I just ordered some last week. They have a ten year shelf life, so a 50pk is a good investment even if only for your night-stand gun and flashlights!!

These are only my opinions. I'm no expert. But this is what works for me.
 

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Jerry's father in law was the late Jim Clark, Sr. Jim Jr. still runs the business. I have shot with some of the family. Jerry is married to Kay Clark.
It's funny how a feller only remembers certain things from a 20 minute conversation almost three years ago... I coulda swore he mentioned Baer in a family conotation but... I stand corrected!

Miculek was at the grand opening of the indoor pistol range in Tontitown, dad and I cornered him for a bit. Jerry's a heck of a nice guy (and bigger than he looks on TV, too).
 

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I can tell you I had a lot of mixed feelings on lasers until I purchased one. I came across a smoking deal on a set to go on a Smith 642 (jframe). I carry this gun for CCW and after installing the CT grips I love it even more. It is freaky fast to aquire a target inside of ten yards and at that distance I can unload all 5 chambers appreciably faster with the CT grips than without. That is assuming all COM hits.

To those that are worried about giving away a position...I can buy that argument from law enforcement or someone whose job it was to sneak around, but for personal self-defense it just doesn't wash. First of all, you don't have to have the laser on. It is operated via a pressure switch. Secondly, if I have to pull a gun, that means 99% of the time I have to use it and that suspiciously lound BANG is going to give away my posistion anyway.

As an added bonus that I consider to be HUGE, with the CT grips you can shoot from virtually any position with either strong or weak hand and still make acceptable shots. This could prove to be invaluable should someone attack and knock you to the ground or incapacitate your strong hand.

They certainly aren't the end all to the issues of self-defense, but they have their place and can serve as a very valuable tool when used correctly.
 

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A white light can help ID a threat from your wife coming down the hall, or your teenage son/daughter sneaking in a window after
I'm not sniping at you and I've got a lot of respect for many of your posts, so hopefully this won't upset you....

What you describe here is actually one of, if not the greatest downside to a weapons mounted white light. In order to use it properly, you must be pointing a weapon at the target, and in this case that target is your wife/son/daughter. I realize there are techniques for casting the outer circle of light where you want to see, but few, very few, will be able to do this under stress while maintaining all rules of firearms safety.

Again, just giving an opposing view, and making a warning available to others that may be less knowledgeable.

Weapon mounted lights are like laser grips, they have a very important place. They are great tools in trained hands, and they do serve important purposes. They are not, however, the end all to every situation nor or they for everyone to use.
 

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No offense taken bro.... And I agree wholeheartedly... thus the reason I mentioned the "two is one, one is none" analogy.

But for me, between the two (laser and white light)... a white light is the most useful!

If it is USED correctly... neither are worth much if you have an idget behind the widget!!!


And one more thing to contemplate, is this..... keep the finger off the trigger until you are ready to SHOOT!!! And this takes a lot of practice!!! It is not natural for most folks to "index" the trigger finger. It is a learned response and takes a good deal of repetition to ingrain it as habit!!!
 

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No offense taken bro.... And I agree wholeheartedly... thus the reason I mentioned the "two is one, one is none" analogy.

But for me, between the two (laser and white light)... a white light is the most useful!

If it is USED correctly... neither are worth much if you have an idget behind the widget!!!


And one more thing to contemplate, is this..... keep the finger off the trigger until you are ready to SHOOT!!! And this takes a lot of practice!!! It is not natural for most folks to "index" the trigger finger. It is a learned response and takes a good deal of repetition to ingrain it as habit!!!
I certainly agree with all that. Amazes me how many folks I see pick up guns in gunstores and otherwise and the finger goes immediately to the trigger.
 
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