Arkansas Hunting banner
21 - 40 of 60 Posts

· Premium Member
Joined
·
31,200 Posts
Back in the 80’s when poult to hen ratios were running 4 or 5 poults per hen - the highest numbers since the poult survey started - not only were farmers spreading chicken litter - they were dumping dead chickens at the end of every dead end road - and the wild turkeys were feeding on the lush grass that was there as a result of the rotting chickens - and the prospered.
Missouri’s current research is proving the same cause for the decline in turkey numbers as the previous 100 turkey studies.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
4,959 Posts
What the nest raiders don't get, we smoke hell out of. Between us and the astronomically high egg/poult mortality rate, it's a miracle there's still any left. Best we can do is raise that survival rate in our areas by trapping and habitat improvements so we can kill more because I don't want to quit hunting them anymore than anyone else.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
31,200 Posts
I dont recall the exact numbers I posted a while back but in the 80s MO sold around 200000 coons in a year and a couple of years ago it was 20000.
Yes - The fur market held up longer in missouri than it did in AR. And I dont mean at top prices of the 70’s and 80’s. I mean when AR coon were $5, MO coon were $10 and when AR coon were worthless, MO coon were still $4 or $5. Money is an incentive for trapping.

Some Lousiana parishes have a $5 bounty on nutria, and over 300,000 are turned in for bounty - but they have LOT of nutria so big numbers make the low bounty worthwhile.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
8,838 Posts
Yes - The fur market held up longer in missouri than it did in AR. And I dont mean at top prices of the 70’s and 80’s. I mean when AR coon were $5, MO coon were $10 and when AR coon were worthless, MO coon were still $4 or $5. Money is an incentive for trapping.

Some Lousiana parishes have a $5 bounty on nutria, and over 300,000 are turned in for bounty - but they have LOT of nutria so big numbers make the low bounty worthwhile.
They have a leg up on being able to do such when it come to nutria. They are a non-native species & considered an invasive animal. With that alone, very few hoops to jump thru & T's to be crossed & I's dotted to preform such when it comes to reducing their numbers or even, If possible wiping them out, would have no impact on the original, natural ecosystem. Think that is going to be a major issue to make it pass the smell test for all when it comes to having some type of government sponsored predator's control measure. The target animals will be natural, native species in the pre-existing ecosystem so I would imagine there would be no telling how many different studies & the like required to do so.

You know, I really wonder just how many would in truth even start trying to catch predators with a bounty in place that are not already doing so? Know, the way I look at it is like this, "If a fellow is not willing to help himself for the betterment of himself, why should he be paid to do such he was not willing to do to start with?"

And on that note, the Paying to so! Was doing a little math on this deal the other day to see how much affect it would really have. Kinda used the numbers from the other thread where the $30 turkey stamp was mentioned to be bought by the 50,000 turkey hunters that would generate $1.5 million dollars. Say it all was used for a bounty (no overhead $$$$'s at all out of it------- but some would have to be thru reducing that amount downward for bounties). It was suggested that a $15 bounty be placed on predators---------- thus it would fund 100,000 bounties. Sounds effective up until you do this, how much good in truth would removing 100,000 critters from 53,179 square miles have? That would figure out to be removing 1.8, not even 2 per each square mile across the state.

Here, IMO is a more valuable route to take. IF a person is truly wanting to do something, (and that is what it is going to take to start with first) take the $30, and instead of spending it on a state run program, order them 2 dog proofs, buy them a can of sardines & a bag of marshmallows with the same $$$$$$'s. Take them 2 dog proofs come deer season when you there every day or so hunting, bait them suckers up, put them around your corn pile during deer season & catch you some. Guess what, 1 guy catches him just 1.8 predators off his corn pile he has matched per mile what this would do. But the guy hunting the next 40 over catches him 1.8, then you have doubled it. Say you got 16 folks hunting each 40 in a square mile, that 16 folks, they all catch 1.8 predators, that's 28-29 predators off each square mile. And who says each will not catch more? That's how you get the best bang for the buck!
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,283 Posts
They have a leg up on being able to do such when it come to nutria. They are a non-native species & considered an invasive animal. With that alone, very few hoops to jump thru & T's to be crossed & I's dotted to preform such when it comes to reducing their numbers or even, If possible wiping them out,!
UUGGGGGGH, and so is Feral hogs. After awhile, in both regards, it’s as if, too little too late.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
31,200 Posts
They have a leg up on being able to do such when it come to nutria. They are a non-native species & considered an invasive animal. With that alone, very few hoops to jump thru & T's to be crossed & I's dotted to preform such when it comes to reducing their numbers or even, If possible wiping them out, would have no impact on the original, natural ecosystem. Think that is going to be a major issue to make it pass the smell test for all when it comes to having some type of government sponsored predator's control measure. The target animals will be natural, native species in the pre-existing ecosystem so I would imagine there would be no telling how many different studies & the like required to do so.

You know, I really wonder just how many would in truth even start trying to catch predators with a bounty in place that are not already doing so? Know, the way I look at it is like this, "If a fellow is not willing to help himself for the betterment of himself, why should he be paid to do such he was not willing to do to start with?"

And on that note, the Paying to so! Was doing a little math on this deal the other day to see how much affect it would really have. Kinda used the numbers from the other thread where the $30 turkey stamp was mentioned to be bought by the 50,000 turkey hunters that would generate $1.5 million dollars. Say it all was used for a bounty (no overhead $$$$'s at all out of it------- but some would have to be thru reducing that amount downward for bounties). It was suggested that a $15 bounty be placed on predators---------- thus it would fund 100,000 bounties. Sounds effective up until you do this, how much good in truth would removing 100,000 critters from 53,179 square miles have? That would figure out to be removing 1.8, not even 2 per each square mile across the state.

Here, IMO is a more valuable route to take. IF a person is truly wanting to do something, (and that is what it is going to take to start with first) take the $30, and instead of spending it on a state run program, order them 2 dog proofs, buy them a can of sardines & a bag of marshmallows with the same $$$$$$'s. Take them 2 dog proofs come deer season when you there every day or so hunting, bait them suckers up, put them around your corn pile during deer season & catch you some. Guess what, 1 guy catches him just 1.8 predators off his corn pile he has matched per mile what this would do. But the guy hunting the next 40 over catches him 1.8, then you have doubled it. Say you got 16 folks hunting each 40 in a square mile, that 16 folks, they all catch 1.8 predators, that's 28-29 predators off each square mile. And who says each will not catch more? That's how you get the best bang for the buck!
The LA nutria bounty is federally funded. I was just using it as an example to show that a bounty will increase the effort by hunters and trappers. Without the bounty, it is highly doubtful folks would be killing 350,000 nutria a year across southern LA.

There are several differences between the LA nutria bounty and what would be an AR nest predator bounty - one of which you mentioned as native vs non-native species. There are some other differences also. But the point being, in general, in my opinion, an incentive is required to even begin to achieve the harvest of nest predators that would be needed. While I am an advocate of a bounty system, I also admit there would be several hurdles to overcome.

You use the entire state area. I believe there should be some areas excluded. Towns, maybe counties with very little turkey habitat. I believe, like south dakota, the predator removal should be just prior to or during nesting season. While I dont want to discourage anyone from predator removal in November, it is much more effective to remove them in the spring to positively influence nest and poult survival.

I think a bounty would increase effort. In my case, I trap off an on - especially in spring. But I target the easy catches. My coon are very difficult to catch in dp traps. If I were receiving $10 per coon, I would employee some dirt hole or trail sets. I am not going to knock on doors to gain access to other lands. I might at $10 per coon. One coon at $10 equals approximately one bag of corn is how I look at it.

Also, in my neck of the woods, I know of no other person trapping. We have almost no turkeys, so very few of the locals are turkey hunters. It is difficult to get a 14 yr old kid or a low income farm worker to run a nest predator trap line, when the game species that is supposed to be benefitted does not exist there in numbers and there is no monetary incentive for the trapper.

A bounty system, without a doubt, is not going to cure our turkey problem. But, maybe it does make a difference here or there - and those local areas that benefit may spread into other areas. Also, this isnt just about turkeys. Any nest predator removed from the ecosystem could well save rabbit nests, song bird nests, quail nests, and other terrestrial animals.

And the point to all of it - what are we doing now that actually benefits turkeys. What is G&F doing? I surely am not the best informed - but I dang sure am not the worst informed - and I dont see much effort on their part. I surely hope I am wrong on that point and welcome being corrected.

We have got to do something. Barring perfect nesting weather five years in a row - this isnt going to take care of itself.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
5,760 Posts
And the point to all of it - what are we doing now that actually benefits turkeys. What is G&F doing? I surely am not the best informed - but I dang sure am not the worst informed - and I dont see much effort on their part. I surely hope I am wrong on that point and welcome being corrected.

We have got to do something. Barring perfect nesting weather five years in a row - this isnt going to take care of itself.”


SwampCat,
This goes back to research for me. We spend countless efforts and money for research, which I support, but at some point what is learned has to be addressed. And I’m sure it is, but at what level and tenacity? AGFC, NWTF, TFT, etc. ….put you your money where your mouth is!! I have probably been one of the most vocal critics against those who blame the AGFC for the decline, based on the opinion that they can only influence so much with private landowners, USFS, and timber companies. And I still believe weather has been devastating to nesting and poult survival over the last 15-20 years, with the exception of 2-3 years. I still stand by that, but at the same time there needs to be an all out, aggressive effort. It often feels like we wait on more research, like we will need to study fire ants, chicken litter, and disease before we address what already has been proven to be detrimental. We may have 97% of the pie chart figured out, but let’s wait 10 more years while we figure out the other 3% before putting a solution into action. What we don’t know… have private land owners and timber companies turned down AGFC proposals for habitat improvements? If so, what’s the counter…..Shrug shoulders and give up or continue to “sell” them on the benefits until they can’t say no. And communicate with the turkey hunters of this state!!!

It’s a complex dynamic with multiple layers no doubt, but at least communicate and work towards results. We don’t truly know what’s often going on behind the scenes. I have supported and will continue to support the NWTF, and I am thankful for what they have accomplished over the years, but it becomes more and more difficult to think of a bulk of the money raised leaving our state. Would those funds be better served here at home through a different avenue? I’m appreciative of their voice in Washington DC, as we need that, but worry about too much money going to fluff rather than local level to help turkeys in our own state. Someone share and inform if I’m wrong.

If it takes a required turkey stamp to fund some habitat improvements, then get it done!! Fight and claw for it.

We don’t need more research to reveal many pieces of the puzzle. Habitat, Predators, Weather…. It’s complex, but simple at the same time. Each of us just has to do our part on our localized levels.

As far as MO, it’s a shell of what it used to be. I’d say they have had an identical trajectory in decline to Arkansas, just a stronger population base to lose from.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,816 Posts
The LA nutria bounty is federally funded. I was just using it as an example to show that a bounty will increase the effort by hunters and trappers. Without the bounty, it is highly doubtful folks would be killing 350,000 nutria a year across southern LA.

There are several differences between the LA nutria bounty and what would be an AR nest predator bounty - one of which you mentioned as native vs non-native species. There are some other differences also. But the point being, in general, in my opinion, an incentive is required to even begin to achieve the harvest of nest predators that would be needed. While I am an advocate of a bounty system, I also admit there would be several hurdles to overcome.

You use the entire state area. I believe there should be some areas excluded. Towns, maybe counties with very little turkey habitat. I believe, like south dakota, the predator removal should be just prior to or during nesting season. While I dont want to discourage anyone from predator removal in November, it is much more effective to remove them in the spring to positively influence nest and poult survival.

I think a bounty would increase effort. In my case, I trap off an on - especially in spring. But I target the easy catches. My coon are very difficult to catch in dp traps. If I were receiving $10 per coon, I would employee some dirt hole or trail sets. I am not going to knock on doors to gain access to other lands. I might at $10 per coon. One coon at $10 equals approximately one bag of corn is how I look at it.

Also, in my neck of the woods, I know of no other person trapping. We have almost no turkeys, so very few of the locals are turkey hunters. It is difficult to get a 14 yr old kid or a low income farm worker to run a nest predator trap line, when the game species that is supposed to be benefitted does not exist there in numbers and there is no monetary incentive for the trapper.

A bounty system, without a doubt, is not going to cure our turkey problem. But, maybe it does make a difference here or there - and those local areas that benefit may spread into other areas. Also, this isnt just about turkeys. Any nest predator removed from the ecosystem could well save rabbit nests, song bird nests, quail nests, and other terrestrial animals.

And the point to all of it - what are we doing now that actually benefits turkeys. What is G&F doing? I surely am not the best informed - but I dang sure am not the worst informed - and I dont see much effort on their part. I surely hope I am wrong on that point and welcome being corrected.

We have got to do something. Barring perfect nesting weather five years in a row - this isnt going to take care of itself.
If there was a $10 bounty on coons, in three years they would be hard to catch…..anywhere. And like you mentioned, rice fields and cotton fields don’t need any attention. Charge $50 for the turkey stamp. Prices some folks out of the game and reduces the pressure on the resource without reducing “opportunity”. $2.5M would surpass coon harvest from when prices were prime. You still have to want to do it at $10/coon and desire to help the turkeys would be a necessary motivating factor, but $10 coons could buy a LOT of beer and diesel fuel.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
16,565 Posts
The same one’s catching coons now for nothing would be the only ones collecting the $10 bounty IMO. Most people are too lazy or lack ambition to go and try to rid the forest of nest raiders for $10 a piece. And you ain’t gonna price anyone out of turkey hunting at $50 dollar license fees. That would just advocate less legal turkey hunters.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,816 Posts
The same one’s catching coons now for nothing would be the only ones collecting the $10 bounty IMO. Most people are too lazy or lack ambition to go and try to rid the forest of nest raiders for $10 a piece. And you ain’t gonna price anyone out of turkey hunting at $50 dollar license fees. That would just advocate less legal turkey hunters.
You just gave me an idea. Maybe all the fees from turkey poachers should also go in the bounty pot. Way to think outside the box!
 

· Registered
Joined
·
8,134 Posts
The same one’s catching coons now for nothing would be the only ones collecting the $10 bounty IMO. Most people are too lazy or lack ambition to go and try to rid the forest of nest raiders for $10 a piece. And you ain’t gonna price anyone out of turkey hunting at $50 dollar license fees. That would just advocate less legal turkey hunters.
I say we find out
 

· Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,104 Posts
$10 a coon wouldn't get most people trapping, but it would get the ones already trapping motivated to try and make some money.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
11,962 Posts
I don't turkey hunt often but I remember hearing that one of the negatives of the chicken business was the litter would have a negative impact on native wild bird populations.and our fisheries. Without question booming predator populations also are affecting prey animals. We need more trappers, shame the financial incentive is gone. Trapping is a lot of fun but if you can't get paid to do it most won't. It takes time and money to run a trapline.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
31,200 Posts
I don't turkey hunt often but I remember hearing that one of the negatives of the chicken business was the litter would have a negative impact on native wild bird populations.and our fisheries. Without question booming predator populations also are affecting prey animals. We need more trappers, shame the financial incentive is gone. Trapping is a lot of fun but if you can't get paid to do it most won't. It takes time and money to run a trapline.
That is the problem with the supposed two most likely “cures” to get us out of the turkey pit. Remove Predators and or improve habitat. Neither are a cheap, easy fix. My habitat improvements greatly exceed my trapping effort in time, effort, and expense.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Why isn’t AGFC trying to relocate or transplant or hatch turkeys by the thousands every year at this point?

After a short time the population would likely be able to sustain itself until the next few years of bad weather luck
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
18,631 Posts
Why isn’t AGFC trying to relocate or transplant or hatch turkeys by the thousands every year at this point?

After a short time the population would likely be able to sustain itself until the next few years of bad weather luck
Where are these thousands of birds coming rom for transplant or relocation?

Captive hatched birds don't survive. It's been tried and proven not to work multiple times.
 
21 - 40 of 60 Posts
Top