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"We are also losing hunters each year... prime reason is that a lots of hunters don't know how good Arkansas IS... so why fight for it????"



Yea, that's why we are losing hunters. :rolleyes:
 

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my godfather has killed lots and lots it nice bucks. Probably 50+. Never killed a doe and I guarantee never scored a buck. Some people just don’t care


At the time and up to the last 2-3 years the potential state record was
Treated that way. Rex Hancock scored it tight at 197 back in 1964.

Ya never heard of it right? The owner left it hanging in Burrows for a couple years, after it was remounted.

A half dozen or more, Arkansas boonies have been burned or stolen.

I’ve talked to a lots of wives of hunters with boonie type horns. They said if any thing happened to the husband they would chunk them or put in a yard sale.

Had one Son tell me ..... that is a prized family possession and I’d better take care of it.
Nearly 100 years later he still has it on wall

My question is if you are not that proud of them why not kill a doe, and leave the trophy

In my 65 years of measuring I have found that a hunter that doesn’t want a trophy scored has a back story.
 

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At the time and up to the last 2-3 years the potential state record was
Treated that way. Rex Hancock scored it tight at 197 back in 1964.

Ya never heard of it right? The owner left it hanging in Burrows for a couple years, after it was remounted.

A half dozen or more, Arkansas boonies have been burned or stolen.

I’ve talked to a lots of wives of hunters with boonie type horns. They said if any thing happened to the husband they would chunk them or put in a yard sale.

Had one Son tell me ..... that is a prized family possession and I’d better take care of it.
Nearly 100 years later he still has it on wall

My question is if you are not that proud of them why not kill a doe, and leave the trophy

In my 65 years of measuring I have found that a hunter that doesn’t want a trophy scored has a back story.
Surely you don’t believe the last sentence.
 

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DufferDan you seem like a knowledge guy and I appreciate your passion for this.

However, you make some assumptions that just aren't correct. Not every huge buck killed and not scored has a "back story." There are a dozen legal and legit reasons some bucks aren't scored. The main one being some guys just don't care.

Also, to the post I quote below, as much hype as antlers have produced for the past 10 to 20 years, there are still tons of hunters who don't give a rip about raising trophy deer in AR. Deer hunting isn't about killing Booners, it is about family, time in the woods, and meat on the table. First legal deer gets shot and that's great.

Personally I do not like the big antler craze. It's soured deer hunting for a lot of people. I'd rather have a healthy, well balanced herd (which will by nature produce some bigger mature bucks) than continue having Game and Fish agencies push for bigger and bigger racks.

Again, I respect your passion, but there are two sides to this argument.
Yes I do include Tennessee most of the time in my statistics... But the ones I use prove my point... Tennessee and Kentucky just reinforces it. Plus I like to keep the Arkansas hunters Up to date for the last 65 years...

MANAGEMENT.... like it or not is the answer ... otherwise you have the AGFC micro managing it like they do now after the 3 point rule ... no change for the better... just kill kill kill like the CWD stuff...

Anyway .... Will look that up... but Tennessee is kinda like Alabama, it borders on Kentucky with only a state line between them... not a river or a bunch of mountains... And thats a long east to west interface it has with Kentucky... In other words the difference in Kentucky having MORE record book deer than the whole SE plus Tennessee. (Tennessee is an average SE state in the past)

... is prolly management..

Yes Kentucky has MORE record book deer recorded than the Whole of the South East including Tennessee and South Carolina... You know how I know?... They recorded them... so the G&F knows also... nearly a 100 B&C scored each year...

I think it had 31 typs and 23 NTyps in 2009.... (55) But It's doing better lately.. Got some studs as NonTypicals, ( BTW did you read about them? aha.... !!!! got you).. For years Tenn hunters Kinda had the attitude of not getting trophies recorded in Records books and this is the consequence ... Some Big-uns up there changed that....

I know I'm beating a dead horse but here goes...........

Face it ... this is a fact and these totals show it.... If you are proud of big deer racks then get them scored and put in the records books...if not then check out the State totals I have listed... play hide and seek...

If you killed a trophy in a state then reward the Game and Fish by recording it...
If you don't have that interchange then you will lose you chance to influence the G&F...

Other wise they don't know what you are hiding.... so they don't know how good their efforts are or aren't...and we know money talks. We are also losing hunters each year... prime reason is that a lots of hunters don't know how good Arkansas IS... so why fight for it????

It's all about management at this stage of the Game... ReStocking and management came of age in some states in the 20s some in the 30s and most in the south in the 40s... It's got a lots to do with the attitude of the Hunters and the care they exercise with their resource... The three point rule in Arkansas in the 90s is a good example of hunters caring and showing it.......

Will look up Tennessee in AM it's late ... Sorry
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
DufferDan you seem like a knowledge guy and I appreciate your passion for this.

However, you make some assumptions that just aren't correct. Not every huge buck killed and not scored has a "back story." There are a dozen legal and legit reasons some bucks aren't scored. The main one being some guys just don't care.

Also, to the post I quote below, as much hype as antlers have produced for the past 10 to 20 years, there are still tons of hunters who don't give a rip about raising trophy deer in AR. Deer hunting isn't about killing Booners, it is about family, time in the woods, and meat on the table. First legal deer gets shot and that's great.

Personally I do not like the big antler craze. It's soured deer hunting for a lot of people. I'd rather have a healthy, well balanced herd (which will by nature produce some bigger mature bucks) than continue having Game and Fish agencies push for bigger and bigger racks.

Again, I respect your passion, but there are two sides to this argument.

Yes there are two sides and I have been on both sides of that story... But I've simply laid out some facts that are statistics that are in all likely hood true because they are documented and researched... The Kentucky/Tennessee story is a true one and you just need to consider the facts I have listed.. I do have a passion about records books because I know that record book deer listings are one of the reasons SOME hunters in Arkansas, ( documented over 77%) that like Big deer, have them ( big deer) ... The 3 point rule was a result of Deer from the past getting scored by Rex Hancock in the early 60s, then with that list, of 16 B&C from his lists the deer were found and Displayed...

( 2 had burned 2 had been lost when the hunter died etc... one lawyer (now deceased) kept one for his office and would not give it back to the family when the Trophy owner died ... part of his payment) That Trophy and it was/is a trophy is desperately wanted by the family for the fact that it was their Family heirloom
now no one knows who has it....

Anyway, Then more deer that were never scored from the early 60s to the 80s were found and scored... Believe you me, those hunters were very proud of their newly recorded Boonies and after that 20 years without any Boonies being listed in Arkansas and the mentality of the AGFC that we didn't have any big deer left in Arkansas... so we could continue to kill 95% of the 1.5 year old deer...

It was an opening that a bunch of Arkansas hunters jumped on and we went from 16 boonies listed in the 1964 records to a 20 year span of no boonies to the present 254 plus...

I will wager that fact has more supporters of putting a Boonie in a record book than the vociferous ones that brag about the fact they wouldn't have theirs scored, or would display it only to close friends.. Heck that is just a form of free speech and I fully support it ..... I have had the opportunity to be invited later for a score on some of those unlisted because of the Free speech of the Hunter... I will gladly list them as hunter unknown county unknown but will demand that they be listed as an Arkansas deer... if that doesn't work then I will score them anyway and just put the score in my Brief case along with about 100 that I have done that to so far...

But I know that as far as most of the hunters in Arkansas ... they WANT big deer and Want to list them in Record books...

Some I have advised to not enter... but thats another story...

I will take both sides of this story but Someone had to have the Passion to fight the Game and fish for better regulations and do it for the majority of Arkansas Hunters... Thats just life, not every one can agree but as far as the Arkansas herd, ..... words won't always do it and back in the 90s FACTS were presented to the AGF and they made a change.. to keep us from killing 95% of the 1.5 year old bucks.... EACH year .... documented fact..

They thought Arkansas hunters just wanted to kill a Buck, then they polled the Arkansas Hunters and 75% plus wanted the 3 point rule. That wasn't good enough so they restated the questions and 78% of hunters voted to have the 3 point rule...

I am simply a passionate Measurer and I am on the Arkansas Hunter's side

Believe me I support Listing them and not listing them... like the majority of Arkansas Hunters want... and/or don't want. My opinion is just as stated ....
I want them listed ...... if the Hunter does... 75% + want them listed and want big deer..

I'm with the majority but I support the other 20% plus Arkansas hunters.. but 20% ain't a "ton".... because some of that 20% will list them... that's a fact...

I would say that 90% plus of the Arkansas hunters end up wanting to list them...

That "back story" sometimes is my suggestion and I know a LOT of back stories both good and Bad... most are good...
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 · (Edited)
This listing includes Tennessee and Kentucky
State .......................typical..................non typical....................... total
Alabama ......................13.......................... 19 .............................32
Arkansas .....................169.......................... 85 ...........................254
....( in 1964 Arkansas had 28 listings removed because
....they didn't meet the 160 minimum that is now in place)
.... so 254 plus 28 ( should be 282)
Georgia .......................180..........................55 ............................. 235
(Georgia in 1964 had 3 removed) ( 238)
Louisiana .......................56..........................28 ............................. 84
Mississippi ....................114..........................71 ............................185

Kentucky so far last year . 35 .........................21 ..............................56
All time for Kentucky.......724 ........................309 ..........................1133

Tennessee all time........ 39 .........................29 ..............................68

FYI
The total for the southeast:
Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, Tennessee and Florida is ..........................................945
The Kentucky total is ..........1133

Largest Tennessee is the Stephen Tucker 315 1/8 killed in 2016... It is the largest Hunter killed on record and has 47 points.. It is # 4 all time in B&C listings
The next largest Tennessee Non Typical is 244
The largest Tennessee typical is a 186 killed back in 1959
The largest typical in Kentucky listings is a 204 2/8 back in 2000
The largest Non typical in Kentucky is a 274 followed by a 271 ...

1133 vs 68 ... looks like a management problem ... with only a State border in between the two states and the Ohio River Above Kentucky

also just for your information .........
Kentucky 1990 listings were 71 typical and 43 non typical.... 115 total....
Arkansas 1990 listings were 53 typical and 20 non typical ..... 73 total

now all-time for Arkansas ........ typical 169 .....85 nontyp ........... 254 (282)
now all time for Kentucky .........typical 724 ...309 non typical ... 1133

So Arkansas hunters wouldn't like the same results as Kentucky ????
Just a side note ... more to not score means more scored...

You would not believe how many are hanging on Barns or in sheds in the mountains of West Arkansas.... Not scored...
 

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The problem with numbers, stats, and surveys is that they can be skewed.

I'd wager if you could find 100 of the most average weekend warriors (which would be a what a really large portion of AR deer hunters are) and ask them if they wanted bigger bucks, 90% might say yes. Take those same guys and put them on stand and let a real pretty 110" 8pt walk by and the same 90% blast him quick as possible.

They want things in theory but aren't willing to do what it takes to get those things. And those guys are dadgum happy with that basket racked 8 they kill every year until someone asks them if they want bigger deer.

My only point is that the hunt for Booners has not, in my opinion, been healthy for the sport of deer hunting to the average guy. It has killed camp life for many, erased millions of acres of private land guys used to be able to hunt and created a market where only the wealthy have access, it creates unrealistic expectations for a number of youth coming up because of what the TV industry teaches them about what a "trophy" is, and it has turned deer hunting into a contest vs the fun it used to be.

I get it man, you have a passion. I respect it. I have nothing against you and i wish you nothing but the best. Hope you get to score my Booner I kill one day. Just please understand there is not only another side to this than yours, but we are just as "right" as you. We just want different things.
 

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I miss the old days when people were just happy for you if you just killed a deer.
Me too. This horn obsession thing is getting old, and it’s pretty tame on here, very rarely anymore do you hear anyone downing someone for the size of the buck they shot. I bought full scale into it a few year back. Passing bucks I should have shot etc. That crap was no fun FOR ME. Now if a buck makes me happy, I shoot him.
 

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The problem with numbers, stats, and surveys is that they can be skewed.

I'd wager if you could find 100 of the most average weekend warriors (which would be a what a really large portion of AR deer hunters are) and ask them if they wanted bigger bucks, 90% might say yes. Take those same guys and put them on stand and let a real pretty 110" 8pt walk by and the same 90% blast him quick as possible.

They want things in theory but aren't willing to do what it takes to get those things. And those guys are dadgum happy with that basket racked 8 they kill every year until someone asks them if they want bigger deer.

My only point is that the hunt for Booners has not, in my opinion, been healthy for the sport of deer hunting to the average guy. It has killed camp life for many, erased millions of acres of private land guys used to be able to hunt and created a market where only the wealthy have access, it creates unrealistic expectations for a number of youth coming up because of what the TV industry teaches them about what a "trophy" is, and it has turned deer hunting into a contest vs the fun it used to be.

I get it man, you have a passion. I respect it. I have nothing against you and i wish you nothing but the best. Hope you get to score my Booner I kill one day. Just please understand there is not only another side to this than yours, but we are just as "right" as you. We just want different things.
Say it again for those in the back!
 

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I have a gut feeling all the hard work to build up our deer herd since the 3 pt rule was implemented will slowly be gone now with CWD regulations. It's now all about kill kill kill what you see. Kill the young bucks is what I'm told by AGFC. You know why? Because the young bucks travel the most. I don't know who brought this theory about and yes I know young bucks will move to find their place where they don't get whipped every day in the rut. But this regulation with no APR's is taking us backward. For those that hunt the delta and ridge know without a doubt mature bucks travel more than immature bucks. You will see the immature bucks running all around but my experience is they stay within a core area. But for the mature buck, you will see him travel 2-3 miles overnight. Some have been documented to travel 7 miles overnight in the delta.
I suspect this same pattern is happening in the Ozarks, Ouchitas, and south Arkansas as well but the cover is greater so it's not as well known. You take a 150-inch buck which stands out and every hunter or farmer in the delta will know where that buck was last seen in the delta. That buck will search every block of woods during the rut in a 10-mile radius.
 

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Every hunter who kills a buck and doesn't want it scored publicly has a back story. The back story I see is that some hunters don't want his location blasted all over the state, especially public land hunters. Believe it or not, there are hunters who don't want the recognition which brings a spotlight to an area. Then you have the other known fact that any big buck within an area most likely has several hunters hunting that deer. It gets killed and now you have just pissed off every other hunter hunting that buck and now the shade gets thrown. I saw it last year on a couple of bucks and it happens every year.
 

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This thread is a perfect example of what the G&F has to face when trying to please Arkansas deer hunters. Some want anything legal and others only want a wall hanger. It is hard to successfully manage for both. To be honest, AR has pretty decent opportunity for a legal deer, fair opportunity at a quality deer, and reasonable overall hunting opportunity. Granted, a lot of the positive results can be attributed to management activities enacted by the land owner - but within the state’s season framework.

I agree - CWD may one day set us back thirty years on buck quality. I am definitely not a cwd expert - but, it makes you wonder when the state most rife with cwd infections - Wisconsin - - has also produced more B&C deer in the past ten years than any other state in the US.
 

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If I killed a sure enough B&C deer, I'd be proud of it, but I would think long and hard before I had it officially scored or before I posted it on here or anywhere else. Seems like every hoss deer that's posted on here or other social media will, within very few posts, have the jealous and envious trying to cast doubt on the legitimacy of kill, almost without fail.
I used to post lots of trail camera pictures on here of deer on the farms we own. 2 of the biggest bucks I've ever had on camera were poached because of it. I found out, from a very reliable source, that the outlaws were using this site and my posts to scout where to night hunt in the area around here. I hate it, because I liked sharing the pictures, but I had to stop.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Hey guys this started as an entry listing Harvests for the Souther States for comparison

It has degrated into a “Why Hunters don't want their deer listed or scored

Please start another thread on that subject please
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
The problem with numbers, stats, and surveys is that they can be skewed.

I'd wager if you could find 100 of the most average weekend warriors (which would be a what a really large portion of AR deer hunters are) and ask them if they wanted bigger bucks, 90% might say yes. Take those same guys and put them on stand and let a real pretty 110" 8pt walk by and the same 90% blast him quick as possible.

They want things in theory but aren't willing to do what it takes to get those things. And those guys are dadgum happy with that basket racked 8 they kill every year until someone asks them if they want bigger deer.

My only point is that the hunt for Booners has not, in my opinion, been healthy for the sport of deer hunting to the average guy. It has killed camp life for many, erased millions of acres of private land guys used to be able to hunt and created a market where only the wealthy have access, it creates unrealistic expectations for a number of youth coming up because of what the TV industry teaches them about what a "trophy" is, and it has turned deer hunting into a contest vs the fun it used to be.

I get it man, you have a passion. I respect it. I have nothing against you and i wish you nothing but the best. Hope you get to score my Booner I kill one day. Just please understand there is not only another side to this than yours, but we are just as "right" as you. We just want different things.
my figures are not skewed, that IS one think That IS reproducible MY figures......

Camp life was destroyed when we went to the continous 5 week season and dropped the two seasons where we went to camp on Friday or sat or Sunday to get things ready for opening day on Monda
Back thenwe did a bunch together because we were at camp together getting roads, the camp, the stands Readyfor openingday

I see both sides and have taken both sides.
 
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