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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Wow, just read the North American Whitetail magazine, and a article caught my eye from Dr. Deer's Whitetail World, from Dr Kroll.
The article was called Making Sense Out Of Buck Size-Limit Regulations. He talks about many things in this article but he makes a few statements that caught my eye. At the very beginning of the article he mentions a revolutionary new study funded by Steve Vaughn, which by the way is Dr. Krolls publisher for North American Whitetail, but the study was designed to produce a higher incidence of TROPHY-CLASS bucks in this one area of Georgia. The program was a grass roots effort initiated by landowners and sportsmen who were tired of not being able to produce mature bucks. He then goes on to say the Georgia DNR started a 3 year pilot program as a result of this New Revolutionary study, in a single county called Dooley County. The Restrictions were 15" outside spread on bucks. The goals were to see if the limit, increased age structure and antler quality as well if it was accepted by the hunters. He stated the results were successful on all counts, in fact he states they had a 90% approval rate on the program. Dr Kroll then goes on to say other states played follow the leader, to have TROPHY COUNTIES like Dooley county in Georgia. He states Arkansas in the next section, implemented statewide restrictions with other states.
Then he talks about Common Sense VS. Ignorance. He mentions certain sportsman's groups in Arkansas began questioning the statewide size limits imposed in 98. He says it was a familiar story with the same old rhetoric. "We don't want the state telling us what we can kill!" "If we keep shooting does, we will destroy the deer herd my father helped protect."

Now for the kicker, hold on to your keyboard, he states in the next sentence " With average hunters, these thoughts and sentiments might be written off to IGNORANCE about modern management' but they take on a whole new significance when the resistance comes from biologist, state agencies and universities.

He states that Mississippi State professor Dr. Steve Demarais published a paper that said the 4 pt rule actually deteriorated the buck quality in their WMA's. He basically said some biologist are more concerned with revenue and hunter opportunity and he states estimates of revenue of 1 billion collected from license and permits each year with states that have whitetails that reside in the state.

He goes on to state a 14 each spread restriction would protect almost all yearling bucks, 70 % 2 year olds and 20% 3 year old. He says other considerations is to have adequate doe harvest as well then he highlights again that if we place a spread limit and apply adequate doe harvest, the result will be a herd that at least operates near natural conditions.

His last section was highlighted "Its Not Trophy Management" Ok, now if you don't read the article and I suggest you do, but go back through my post and see where I quoted him mentioning Trophy. I see at least two times I quoted what he said and he called it Trophy Class and Trophy Counties. Now some of you may read and take everything the good Doc writes, and I do not claim to be smarter than he is on deer management. But I also didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. He states he is tired of hearing hunters criticize size limits as just ways to produce trophy bucks. Ok sure, it has other reason, but his main reason is to produce trophies. And I can read the writing between the lines. I can't believe he would even make such a statement at the end of the article saying its not trophy management, when he states two times the word, trophy, in describing the study in Georgia. I thought a natural deer herd is where there is no hunting and the deer die of natural causes, and I doubt its a buck to doe ratio of 1 to 2 or 3, as he claims is natural herd ratio.

Now for those that don't know, Dr Kroll is connected business wise to a person in Arkansas, Mr Butler of Buck forage oats, that claims he helped start the 3 pt rule in Ark, and he plans to finish the job in lobbying for more restrictive management, to get a more nature deer herd as he stated to me. He also set up a meeting with Dr Kroll and our commissioners, to allow Dr Kroll give a little speech or lecture to our commissioners. I still can't find out exactly what the meeting covered exactly.

So all in all, the Doc, highlights us hunters in Ark and he doesn't just come right out and say we were ignorant, but you read the article and come to your own conclusions. But I personally take offense to the innuendo . I don't claim what he says wouldn't work, given the right education, land owners and entire situation. But to institute some form of restriction like a spread statewide, would not work, for our hunters on majority. Sure some could do it, and like it. But on majority I feel it would drastically decrease hunter opportunity. And for me, I would like to see our hunters have success. Thats what funds our sport to a big degree.

I know of one WMA in the state that has a spread limit. I would not be personally opposed of other WMA's having that. But to institute a statewide spread type restriction would be disasterous. I am not ignorant to the practices that produce trophy type bucks, its just I choose not to personally enforce my management, my style of hunting on my neighbors. And that is what I think the Doctor is missing. I think the attitude is to force it and they will like it once they see. Well I can see what it can do and I don't want it on a statewide basis personally, especially when any hunting group out there can institute a program or restriction on their own hunting land, but I guess that makes me ignorant.
 

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"But on majority I feel it would drastically decrease hunter opportunity."
Wull that won't work....we all know you'd hafta raise the bag limit on "trophy hunters"! Tell the "good" Doctor that if he expects ole john to get on board.....then he's gonna hafta take a herd of goats, and show me how he's gonna create trophy racks on them first before I'll agree with his frankenstein tactics on my favorite food source!:razz::razz::razz:
 

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I'd like to know what provisions Dr. Kroll would like to have in place along with the 14" restriction so that bucks like our state record(13" inside spread) Dooley buck will be legal for harvest. Sure with that buck it would be obvious that he's a mature(trophy) buck but somewhere is that fine line that will have to be drawn. Where is that line?
 

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I would never support a width limit as a state regulation, however I would go a long with it as a club rule. I do however strongly support the 3 point rule. The way I look at if ya can't count 3 points you have no buisness pulling the trigger.

When DR Kroll talks about ignorance "he is talking about lacking of knowledge" I don't personally think he's tring to offend anyone, but simply stating most people are not aware of the best management techniques. Now when he talks about not being "trophy management" he's full of it. Pretty much every deer management technique these days is geared torward trophy management. Myself I think trophy management is a good thing, however many disagree with me. There will never be a point to where all hunters agree on the same thing.
 

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When DR Kroll talks about ignorance "he is talking about lacking of knowledge" I don't personally think he's tring to offend anyone, but simply stating most people are not aware of the best management techniques. Now when he talks about not being "trophy management" he's full of it. Pretty much every deer management technique these days is geared torward trophy management. Myself I think trophy management is a good thing, however many disagree with me. There will never be a point to where all hunters agree on the same thing.
Agreed.:up:

Ole firehog just has difficulty getting over being "owned" a while back by Dr. Kroll and Mr. Butler.:fit::fit:
 

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I tend to agree with Kroll about antler restrictions..A few years ago the fed.Rrefuge where I do ALL my bowhunting in had a 4 pt. per side or 4 pt. or less on both sides restriction & that year I let about a 16 inch inside 6 pt. walk 2wice & didn't kill a buck at all that year..Very hard to do it was,,of course now,,they have no restrictions in the refuge as any buck is legal..Boy that's a given of stupidity & good deer management out of the wonderful governMENTAL idiots running the thing..The gun hunters will kill every :censored:toehead in the place now(brown its down)..Just have to go with the flow I reckin,,nothing I can do about it except get:mad:
Now about Dr. Deer,, he did disappoint me to no end last week on NAWT tv when he let a buck walk on his 1st morning (obviously because his horns weren't quite big enough) yet he kept talking about what an old buck the deer was..Well,,as they always seem to do,,on the "last day" by some miracle(yea right:whistle:) the old buck shows up again..Only this time Mr. Kroll decides he'll take the buck & starts carrying on about & I quote "Ohhh the buck probably would've never made it through the winter,,that coyotes would have likely gotten him,,how he needed to be taken from the herd due to good management practices",,,,blahblah ect.ect...That being said & if Mr. Kroll was so concerned with the well being of said deer herd on whatever ranch he was "being guided" to hunt on,,how come he didn't kill the buck on day one..Well,,we all know the answer to that..He didn't have a big enough rack,,but would do on the "last minute" to get the footage..I gave some thought to emailing NAWT but figured they wouldn't give a crap about my thoughts on the subject anyway..Personally I'm not gonna deny it,,I've killed so many small bucks that I couldn't care less about ever killing another one,,I'll just take a goodun or a few does..Yet I won't pass up a nice 8 point on the 1st day just on th hope that I may kill a bigger one in the future,,& then kill the same 8 point the last day & make "excuses" as a reason for killing it,,whether they are trueisms to a certain extint or not...But hey,,Dr.Kroll definately knows deer stuff,,I'll give him that & respect him for that,,just not for using it as an excuse just to get some footage...Just my :twocents:
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
CP. if you consider not buying into Mr Butler and Dr Kroll's snake oil AKA Trophy Type Management for the entire state, then I guess I was owned. You know if I am trying to sell a idea or a program and my potential buyers either don't understand what I am selling or they do, but choose not to participate because they understand the long term ramifications. Telling them they are ignorant, (lack knowledge of the benefits of the program) is not how I would go about selling the program. To me it insults us hunters of this state. But that’s beside the point. The point is they, Mr Butler and Dr Kroll, have made it a point to lobby for Trophy type restrictions in this state, but they don't call it trophy management, but they seem to make reference to trophies alot go figure.

But they have that right to lobby as I have a right to lobby against it. There is no doubt their idea of management would produce trophies under the right conditions and hunter participation. But I think they have taken what works on private ground, in small areas and now are trying to force it on everyone, and it won’t work. The hunter participation is not there on a whole and thats key. If it was, then it would work, most likely. At least until only the wealthy could afford to hunt. And if Texas deer management has taught us anything, it has taught us that.

But thats what you get when you get folks who lobby who have game related business ventures who stand to gain from a state sponsored trophy type management plan.


Mr Butler's email comments
Managing for the approval of the ignorant is crazy. Our game department has always looked at it politically more than from a management and educational stand point. When you can't defend policies, discontent always follows.Political decisions can't be defended.

Fact is, we have a large portion of hunters that only want to kill a deer
or any buck with no consideration of the herd.

Probably there is enough of these types to destroy what little progress has
been made if they are turned loose again.

Quality management involves proper sex ratios and age structure. If this
type management is implemented throughout the delta, we can expect all
hunters to have a chance for a quality buck as well as a quality experience.

I have little tolerance for those who have no interest in proper management.
That means they are hunting for selfish purposes and either need an attitude
change or be removed from our ranks. These are usually the types we refer to
as trespassers and poachers.

Turning in thugs and prosecuting all trespassers by legitimate hunters stops
this. Wildlife officers have to have our
help.

The three point rule has been successful because it has forced and inspired thousands of Arkansas hunters to learn something about deer management. This is why it has been the most popular game regulation ever enacted.

I predict finishing the job by implementing real quality management on every acre of the Delta including the Federal Refuges that have always had no
legitimate deer management whatsoever.
Comment on his last statement there--I wonder how White River Refuge has always produced Trophies with no antler restrictions or spread restrictions over the years? And I am talking about before they went to the 3 pt rule. Course now thats taken away.
 

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Well....I'm not recalling the actual rate of the hunter success ratio vs how many deer there actually are at a given season.....but if that rate is 50%.....it's more than likely that it will be reached if there's no APRs......or if there are APRs....or width restrictions, or doe limits etc. etc. It might take the whole dang season, or maybe just a couple days[for each individual hunter to tag out]. So considering that, and considering the possibility of a 14" spread restriction.....you are winding up taking out all the trophy bucks each year, and I might add....most of the doe herd. So successive years down the road I see a drastic reduction in the number of hunters.....at least; public land hunters! The sport will get very complicated and prohibitive[to poorer hunters]! But that's what happens to everything...."show me the MONEY"
 

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CP. if you consider not buying into Mr Butler and Dr Kroll's snake oil AKA Trophy Type Management for the entire state, then I guess I was owned. You know if I am trying to sell a idea or a program and my potential buyers either don't understand what I am selling or they do, but choose not to participate because they understand the long term ramifications. Telling them they are ignorant, (lack knowledge of the benefits of the program) is not how I would go about selling the program. To me it insults us hunters of this state. But that’s beside the point. The point is they, Mr Butler and Dr Kroll, have made it a point to lobby for Trophy type restrictions in this state, but they don't call it trophy management, but they seem to make reference to trophies alot go figure.

But they have that right to lobby as I have a right to lobby against it. There is no doubt their idea of management would produce trophies under the right conditions and hunter participation. But I think they have taken what works on private ground, in small areas and now are trying to force it on everyone, and it won’t work. The hunter participation is not there on a whole and thats key. If it was, then it would work, most likely. At least until only the wealthy could afford to hunt. And if Texas deer management has taught us anything, it has taught us that.

But thats what you get when you get folks who lobby who have game related business ventures who stand to gain from a state sponsored trophy type management plan.


Mr Butler's email comments


Comment on his last statement there--I wonder how White River Refuge has always produced Trophies with no antler restrictions or spread restrictions over the years? And I am talking about before they went to the 3 pt rule. Course now thats taken away.
Well I could've save my fingers if I'd waited a few minutes:thumb:
 

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I don't think he is trying to insult anyone. I think he saying that those who are so strongly against the three point rule are ignorant to the benefits of it. That is they don't know how much it helps. I didn't personally care for it too much at first because I was young and just killing something with horns was a big deal. Now I see more good looking 16" wide and bigger 8 points that I believe to be a result of the passing up on them when they were smaller. I know it made everyone in my camp slow down and start taking the bigger deer and they haven't complained because everyone is killing and seeing bigger bucks now.
 

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Now about Dr. Deer,, he did disappoint me to no end last week on NAWT tv when he let a buck walk on his 1st morning (obviously because his horns weren't quite big enough) yet he kept talking about what an old buck the deer was..Well,,as they always seem to do,,on the "last day" by some miracle(yea right:whistle:) the old buck shows up again..Only this time Mr. Kroll decides he'll take the buck & starts carrying on about & I quote "Ohhh the buck probably would've never made it through the winter,,that coyotes would have likely gotten him,,how he needed to be taken from the herd due to good management practices",,,,blahblah ect.ect...That being said & if Mr. Kroll was so concerned with the well being of said deer herd on whatever ranch he was "being guided" to hunt on,,how come he didn't kill the buck on day one..Well,,we all know the answer to that..He didn't have a big enough rack,,but would do on the "last minute" to get the footage..:
same thing burns me up. He's full of to the greatest degree! That deer sure might have made it through the winter with no problems but the big DR. had to have an excuse to kill a smaller than trophy buck!
 

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If you want to manage for trophy buck do it own your own property, no one is stopping you. But for any idividual to want everyone else to do what HE wants because he knows what is best is BS plain and simple. Tell the jokers to buy more land, they can play all they want then.

Far more hunters in AR are not interested in trophy management, me included, than are interested in growing the Muy Grande of their respective county. When we force others to live by our desires based on our goals or greed alone, we have effectively created and added to a growing discontent among supporters of the hunting community but now they will be former hunters who have been pissed off. Bottom line, when you shove me out of hunting I will become huntings worst nightmare. Then you can watch your BC bucks run circles around your yard. Think I am alone???:wink:
 

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If you want to manage for trophy buck do it own your own property, no one is stopping you. But for any idividual to want everyone else to do what HE wants because he knows what is best is BS plain and simple. Tell the jokers to buy more land, they can play all they want then.

Far more hunters in AR are not interested in trophy management, me included, than are interested in growing the Muy Grande of their respective county. When we force others to live by our desires based on our goals or greed alone, we have effectively created and added to a growing discontent among supporters of the hunting community but now they will be former hunters who have been pissed off. Bottom line, when you shove me out of hunting I will become huntings worst nightmare. Then you can watch your BC bucks run circles around your yard. Think I am alone???:wink:
You're not alone, I'm right beside you.:up:
 

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I tend to agree with Kroll about antler restrictions..A few years ago the fed.Rrefuge where I do ALL my bowhunting in had a 4 pt. per side or 4 pt. or less on both sides restriction & that year I let about a 16 inch inside 6 pt. walk 2wice & didn't kill a buck at all that year..Very hard to do it was,,of course now,,they have no restrictions in the refuge as any buck is legal..Boy that's a given of stupidity & good deer management out of the wonderful governMENTAL idiots running the thing..The gun hunters will kill every :censored:toehead in the place now(brown its down)..Just have to go with the flow I reckin,,nothing I can do about it except get:mad:
Now about Dr. Deer,, he did disappoint me to no end last week on NAWT tv when he let a buck walk on his 1st morning (obviously because his horns weren't quite big enough) yet he kept talking about what an old buck the deer was..Well,,as they always seem to do,,on the "last day" by some miracle(yea right:whistle:) the old buck shows up again..Only this time Mr. Kroll decides he'll take the buck & starts carrying on about & I quote "Ohhh the buck probably would've never made it through the winter,,that coyotes would have likely gotten him,,how he needed to be taken from the herd due to good management practices",,,,blahblah ect.ect...That being said & if Mr. Kroll was so concerned with the well being of said deer herd on whatever ranch he was "being guided" to hunt on,,how come he didn't kill the buck on day one..Well,,we all know the answer to that..He didn't have a big enough rack,,but would do on the "last minute" to get the footage..I gave some thought to emailing NAWT but figured they wouldn't give a crap about my thoughts on the subject anyway..Personally I'm not gonna deny it,,I've killed so many small bucks that I couldn't care less about ever killing another one,,I'll just take a goodun or a few does..Yet I won't pass up a nice 8 point on the 1st day just on th hope that I may kill a bigger one in the future,,& then kill the same 8 point the last day & make "excuses" as a reason for killing it,,whether they are trueisms to a certain extint or not...But hey,,Dr.Kroll definately knows deer stuff,,I'll give him that & respect him for that,,just not for using it as an excuse just to get some footage...Just my :twocents:

If the Truth was known...he probably DID kill it the first day, then did the other filming, to get the footage..............
 

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I have tried to find this "new" article but so far it has been rather elusive...:wink:

The so called "new" Dooly experiment makes me think this is not a recent article since the Dooly three year thingy was in 1993....:smack:



[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]For example, in 1993 the landowners and hunters in Dooly County, Georgia, voluntarily implemented a county-wide QDM program. The three-year trial program began with a 66% public (landowner and hunter) approval, but just three years later, a follow-up survey revealed that 74% of landowners and 89% of hunters approved of the program. Imagine nearly nine out of 10 hunters in an entire county in total agreement! Impressively, the number of 3.5+ year old bucks in the harvest increased by 156% in three seasons. Even with a very liberal doe harvest, the deer population has not disappeared as some hunters initially feared. Dooly County hunters have passed the test and now practice what they preach. Credit for this success goes to the landowners and hunters of Dooly County. The Georgia DNR has agreed to allow Dooly County to continue their QDM program and has established procedures for other counties to do the same. As a result, another county has implemented the program and several other counties are currently going through the process to do likewise.[/SIZE][/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]
Notice this part....Impressively, the number of 3.5+ year old bucks in the harvest increased by 156% in three seasons.
 

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I dont think youre alone Tony. I think youd have a whole bunch of folks on your side.

If you want antler width restrictions on your land or your lease then knock yourself out but I for one would adamantly oppose them statewide.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I don't think he is trying to insult anyone. I think he saying that those who are so strongly against the three point rule are ignorant to the benefits of it. That is they don't know how much it helps. I didn't personally care for it too much at first because I was young and just killing something with horns was a big deal. Now I see more good looking 16" wide and bigger 8 points that I believe to be a result of the passing up on them when they were smaller. I know it made everyone in my camp slow down and start taking the bigger deer and they haven't complained because everyone is killing and seeing bigger bucks now.
I am not against the 3 pt rule and it has helped my Ozark area that I hunt greatly in retaining yearling bucks, in the Delta IMO is was not needed. We got a real short shotgun season only and that pretty much is the restriction.

Back when we implemented the 3 pt rule we were killing a majority of our yearling bucks, now many are at least making it to the next year.

A spread restriction, is a very hard restriction to go by in my opinion for a lot of reasons for hunters. My eyes are pretty good and I am not going to take long caculating 13 inches verse 13 1/2 inches, etc. If a deer never turns its head, you pretty much shouldn't shoot the deer. But because someone from Texas, who works for someone in Ark that has a foodplot seed company, says we need to target a age class of 3 1/2 yo for the entire state and a spread measurement is the best avenue cause it has worked on private ranchs in Texas, and some study in Georgia, funded by another boss of the guy from Texas, well I ain't biting on it for a entire state regulation/plan. Its to extreme IMO.
 

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I am not against the 3 pt rule and it has helped my Ozark area that I hunt greatly in retaining yearling bucks, in the Delta IMO is was not needed. We got a real short shotgun season only and that pretty much is the restriction.

Back when we implemented the 3 pt rule we were killing a majority of our yearling bucks, now many are at least making it to the next year.

A spread restriction, is a very hard restriction to go by in my opinion for a lot of reasons for hunters. My eyes are pretty good and I am not going to take long caculating 13 inches verse 13 1/2 inches, etc. If a deer never turns its head, you pretty much shouldn't shoot the deer. But because someone from Texas, who works for someone in Ark that has a foodplot seed company, says we need to target a age class of 3 1/2 yo for the entire state and a spread measurement is the best avenue cause it has worked on private ranchs in Texas, and some study in Georgia, funded by another boss of the guy from Texas, well I ain't biting on it for a entire state regulation/plan. Its to extreme IMO.
Maybe they should wait till someone can invent a scope that can immediately detect the age, sex, and antler spread of any deer and while we're at it...automaticly click the safety off:smack:
 
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