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Discussion starter · #102 ·
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This is so neat what the ABBC does with its Best New Buck
Deal
This name tag reads
This BUCK was
Shot by
T Tillis
Nov 23, 1904
about 4 miles west
Pickett, Ark

Pickett is one of the old ways to spell Piggot, ark

Last years winner... this is one of the reasons for record keeping
Wouldn't you love to hear ..
T. Tillis's story....
He left part of his story on the plaque

History unearthed

Go Figure
Keep some form of records

Enjoy
 
Discussion starter · #104 ·
What’s the story on the “brothers from magnolia”
Page 4 under the Stats thread back in Oct 2015

For years in Columbia County two brothers and a guy named Kelley poached and killed thousands of deer in Columbia County. Kelley got caught and fined for killing and selling 400 plus deer in one 6 month period. He was fined $ 10,000 and said he was leaving Columbia county anyway because the two guys south of him were killing more than him…
Might google this if you want…

As I recall ….All of the deer listed in the B&C book from Columbia county ...were taken Before 1980 ……
John Gosdin typ 165 (1978), Grady Newton typ 161 (1956), Edwin Franks typ 162, ( grossed about 177 as I recall) 1962
Donald Munn 1972 ( NT 177) Clayton McNeil 1977 (NT 177).
My memory fails me for the other 2 that have been officially scored above 160 typ...

Only know of one NT in Columbia County that would make book at 185… but haven't scored it yet…. I think Greyhound knows of this one…. It was scored (unofficial) in 1992 at about 180 but had some judgement calls ( webbing on g-2 and g-3s) that weren't used… Think it was from about 1980s also…not for sure on this … but I think it was killed in West Columbia County near Walker Creek area as I recall

Basically i will say that if Billy Fred Lewis and myself didn't know about the Big uns taken in Columbia County back then …. it probably didn't happen legally …...

Billy Fred told me about the Franks deer in the 70-80s and its 16 or so points… Had a relative bring it in to the Big Buck Classic 2 years ago.
When I turned around and saw Dave scoring it I said which county … he said Columbia .. I said is that the Franks deer… He showed me the score sheet… I showed him my notes from the 80s ….

If you haven't figured it out yet … the brothers were rumored to start their "business" of poaching about 1970s…..

My argument is with ALL this knowledge of Columbia County deer …. at this point in time to use a Hillary Clinton saying

"What difference would it make" referring to the poor habitat with most of the genetics gone…..

Some big ones WERE killed before the poaching began...

NONE since….

JUST My humble opinion …. of course with some facts

Last edited: Oct 21, 2015
 
Discussion starter · #105 ·
Boone and Crockett listing
239 B&C Typicals with inside less than 16 inches (15 7/8 or less)
0 from Arkansas ...... the Edwin Franks at 16 0/8 with a score of 163 is smallest
typical .... but there are 37 Arkansas Typicals with inside spread less than 20 inches...

11 B&C Non typicals with inside spread less than 16 inches
1 Arkansas Non Typical with an inside spread of 16 1/8
Of note .... only 12 Arkansas Non Typicals with inside spread less than 20 inches

Arkansas Typical Main beam listings ....
One Typ listing in Arkansas (T. Kinser 162 1/8 1996) has main beam lengths of 22 0/8 & 19 5/8
All remaining Arkansas typical entries have main beam lengths of 22 1/8 or more

Arkansas non Typical main beam listings ... all above 16 inches
smallest 2 with one main beam of 16 4/8 and the other entry 16 6/8
Next smallest is 1 with main beam listings of 18 0/8 and 18 1/8

When it comes to B&C record book listings .. spread is a non issue,

Now P&Y is a totally different story... more of this later..
 
@DufferDan that last sentence is intriguing. Are you saying that there are a lot of narrow spreads in the pope and young books?
 
When it comes to B&C record book listings .. spread is a non issue,
Yep, for sure, the current #1 listed buck in Arkansas, the Dooley buck only had a spread of 13 4/8". But still ended up having 232 inches plus of score. Tine length and mass is where it is at.

TOTAL POINTS PER ANTLER 12 15
NO. OF IRREGULAR POINTS 8 11
TOTAL IRREGULAR INCHES 34 50 1/8
LENGTH OF MAIN BEAMS 24 2/8 23 1/8
LENGTH OF 1ST POINT 9 7 7/8
LENGTH OF 2ND POINT 10 7/8 13 7/8
LENGTH OF 3RD POINT 8 7/8 9
LENGTH OF 4TH POINT 0 0
LENGTH OF 5TH POINT 0 0
LENGTH OF 6TH POINT 0 0
LENGTH OF 7TH POINT 0 0
1ST CIRCUMFERENCE (C1) 6 1/8 5 7/8
2ND CIRCUMFERENCE (C2) 5 5/8 6
3RD CIRCUMFERENCE (C3) 5 1/8 5 7/8
4TH CIRCUMFERENCE (C4) 4 5/8 2 5/8
SCORE PER SIDE 108 4/8 124 3/8
INSIDE SPREAD 13 4/8
PERCENTAGE OF IRREGULARITY 36.1
Total Inches 232 7/8
BTR SCORE 246 3/8
(INCLUDES INSIDE SPREAD)

And an added thing to think about, under this new 15/18 spread/beam length APR being tested by G&F, the current Arkansas #1 deer would not have meet the spread regulation of that, and on the beam length part of the reg it would have been legal, at 24" +/- each, 6" sounds like alot until your trying to measure on the run in the field. Person might of had an issue under the wrong conditions with this one under that type of APR the way the antlers are on the deer, long but not tall curving way back then way forward on the head on that right side if that was all you could see, one might of questioned that is was 18" for sure. Points not an issue under spread/beam APR, legal spike if meets them, a deer like this is it does not, illegal. But no doubt legal under a 3, 4 or maybe even a 10 point on 1 side APR.

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Discussion starter · #109 ·
@DufferDan that last sentence is intriguing. Are you saying that there are a lot of narrow spreads in the pope and young books?
Use aneducated
@DufferDan that last sentence is intriguing. Are you saying that there are a lot of narrow spreads in the pope and young books?
I would just say it's an educated guess.... but in the "Stats article " i wrote that
a 130 class deer has an inside spread of ....17 3/8 Arkansas average
a 140 class deer has an inside spread of.... 18 3/8 "
a 150 deer 18 5/8 "
a 160 deer 19 4/8 "
a 170 deer 19 4/8 "
a 180 deer 19 6/8 "

Looks like my guess is just a guess as the P&Y minimum is 130 for Typicals and the average inside spread for a 130 typical is 17 3/8 ... won't be many smaller than 16 is another guess..

ad I said before... the increase in spread from 130 to 180 is only 2 3/8 inches...
But after these holidays are over I shall try to obtain better "Stats" for P&Y deer..


The old stats page ( 2015) I'm looking at shows the top 38 Arkansas P&Y Typicals
Only six are less than 17 inches inside...
Three are less than 16 inches ( 13 6/8, 15 3/8, 15 4/8)
one at 13 6/8 with a net of 154 3/8
Interesting the Aaron Joliff 170 6/8 (former number one) is 16 3/8 inside
These listings have changed since 2015... with several beating the Joliff buck.. More later..

Now this is where the work begins as there are 513 Typical listings for P&Y back in 2015
Plus 29 Non Typical listings ... so quick math 542 i think...

Of those 29 P&Y NT....
there are 12 that are less than 17 inches
five (5) of these are less than 16...
and one at 13 6/8

BTW the number one P&Y NT in Arkansas in 2015 is the Ryan Sullivan 212 1/8...
... next best is the 198 0/8 Phillip Carter...
 
Discussion starter · #110 ·
Yep, for sure, the current #1 listed buck in Arkansas, the Dooley buck only had a spread of 13 4/8". But still ended up having 232 inches plus of score. Tine length and mass is where it is at.

TOTAL POINTS PER ANTLER 12 15
NO. OF IRREGULAR POINTS 8 11
TOTAL IRREGULAR INCHES 34 50 1/8
LENGTH OF MAIN BEAMS 24 2/8 23 1/8
LENGTH OF 1ST POINT 9 7 7/8
LENGTH OF 2ND POINT 10 7/8 13 7/8
LENGTH OF 3RD POINT 8 7/8 9
LENGTH OF 4TH POINT 0 0
LENGTH OF 5TH POINT 0 0
LENGTH OF 6TH POINT 0 0
LENGTH OF 7TH POINT 0 0
1ST CIRCUMFERENCE (C1) 6 1/8 5 7/8
2ND CIRCUMFERENCE (C2) 5 5/8 6
3RD CIRCUMFERENCE (C3) 5 1/8 5 7/8
4TH CIRCUMFERENCE (C4) 4 5/8 2 5/8
SCORE PER SIDE 108 4/8 124 3/8
INSIDE SPREAD 13 4/8
PERCENTAGE OF IRREGULARITY 36.1
Total Inches 232 7/8
BTR SCORE 246 3/8
(INCLUDES INSIDE SPREAD)

And an added thing to think about, under this new 15/18 spread/beam length APR being tested by G&F, the current Arkansas #1 deer would not have meet the spread regulation of that, and on the beam length part of the reg it would have been legal, at 24" +/- each, 6" sounds like alot until your trying to measure on the run in the field. Person might of had an issue under the wrong conditions with this one under that type of APR the way the antlers are on the deer, long but not tall curving way back then way forward on the head on that right side if that was all you could see, one might of questioned that is was 18" for sure. Points not an issue under spread/beam APR, legal spike if meets them, a deer like this is it does not, illegal. But no doubt legal under a 3, 4 or maybe even a 10 point on 1 side APR.

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Yeah I missed that one.... sorry .....
The William Dooley buck is listed in B&C at 238 3/8... net ..... 1999
Inside spread is 13 2/8
Panel scored by 3 B&C and 2 P&Y official measurers as it was a potential new Arkansas record beating the Next best ... Kevin Wards ( pick up) from 1994 ( scored in 1999) 237 5/8 net NT with an inside spread of 17 3/8
The Kevin Ward was also panel scored by the same folks the year before as the new Arkansas Record ( at that time) 237 5/8... found in 1994 scored in 1999...
The B&C .. Arkansas Record NT has not changed since the Dooley Buck (1999) was scored in 2000
The Jay Hickey at 229 came close in 2011 I think....

Bedtime.... eyes blurry ...
 
Dooley buck was quite unusual. I also measured it. With just the rack, it didn’t matter how you laid it on the table—it stayed in that position. Points sticking out everywhere!
 
Those are some fantastic deer, no doubt. I personally would never be able to tell the difference between 15 inches and 17 inches on the hoof. Even 18 or 19 inches and we're only talking 2 or 3 inches over the minimum that is used in some areas. No way I could see 2 inches difference at 30 to 150 yards. The only way to be reasonably certain would be to have a lot of good game cam pictures of the bucks you wanted to hunt.
 
Discussion starter · #114 ·
Yep thanks
I believe you are right... but will wait till I get something in from P&Y.. they were swamped this week.. Holidays and such.....
Not all P&Y make it to the ABBC ... some go to Jonesboro... some only ABBC... some are just entered ..... The P&Y Measurers in this state are a strong group... and work hard... Hat's off to them...

Anyway
My records are complete and organized up to 2010..
But rearranging my files ( about 2000) in the office has created a perfect storm of records...
in other words my system was good for 1200 but not 2000...... will be out of the eye next week.... hopefully...
 
Discussion starter · #115 · (Edited)
The Arkansas P&Y records listing for Typical Whitetail Deer as of 2015 record listings
1....170 6/8......Aaron Joliff.................2011.....Benton COunty
2....170 0/8......Clay Bassham.............1996.....Cross County
3....170 0/8......Michael Franks............2007.....Washington County
4....167 4/8......Alton Roland Irwin, jr...2011.....Cross County
5....167 2/8......Raymond King.............2008.....White County
6....166 5/8......Todd Harris..................2006.....Monroe County
7....164 4/8.......Lance Brister...............2012.....Crittenden County
8....164 0/8.......John Jamison..............2010.....Howard County
......164 0/8.......Rob Jones...................2006.....Arkansas County
10...163 2/8.......Larry Stanley..............1982.....Drew County
..............................Old Arkansas Record book from 1982 ... lasted until 1996
..............................One beam 29 2/8 over 25 7/8 ... inside 22 6/8
11....160 7/8........Donald Cost...............1995.....Polk County

forgot to List the Donald R Sweetin.... no longer with us ...
172 0/8.....Arkansas County 1996 Completely legal P&Y Bowkill,,,, except for a
lighted sight pin on his bow.. with no battery in it...
Donald didn't know this was not legal at that time... Passed the ABBC lie
detector test at that time as I recall...
IMHO this should have been the P&Y standard for Arkansas
 
Discussion starter · #116 ·
The Arkansas P&Y records Listing for Non-Typical whitetail Deer as of 2015 record listing
1......212 1/8.....Ryan Sullivan.............2013.......Mississippi County
2......198 0/8.....Philip Carter...............2012.......Benton County
3......197 0/8.....Kevin Owens..............2003.......Poinsett County
4......192 7/8.....Jay Wright..................2001......St Francis County
5......187 7/8.....William McCombs........2011......Jefferson County
6......186 7/8.....Dean Davis.................2009......Arkansas County
7......186 0/8.....Gary Powell.................1994......Washington County
8......185 0/8.....Witt Stephens..............2001......Sharp County
9......185 7/8.....Kirk Harris...................2013......Crittenden County
10.....183 7/8.....Randal Harris...............1995......Cross County
11.....182 7/8.....Tommy Horton...........1971......Arkansas County
.........................( Old Arkansas # 1 NT P&Y)
.........................Rex Hancock did this one......We Used to display it at the Big Bucks .........................Shows...
Wish he would bring it back to The ABBC to display again... Rich History here....
 
Discussion starter · #117 ·
The Arkansas P&Y records listing for Typical Whitetail Deer as of 2015 record listings
1....170 6/8......Aaron Joliff.................2011.....Benton COunty
2....170 0/8......Clay Bassham.............1996.....Cross County
3....170 0/8......Michael Franks............2007.....Washington County
4....167 4/8......Alton Roland Irwin, jr...2011.....Cross County
5....167 2/8......Raymond King.............2008.....White County
6....166 5/8......Todd Harris..................2006.....Monroe County
7....164 4/8.......Lance Brister...............2012.....Crittenden County
8....164 0/8.......John Jamison..............2010.....Howard County
......164 0/8.......Rob Jones...................2006.....Arkansas County
10...163 2/8.......Larry Stanley..............1982.....Drew County
..............................Old Arkansas Record book from 1982 ... lasted until 1996
..............................One beam 29 2/8 over 25 7/8 ... inside 22 6/8
11....160 7/8........Donald Cost...............1995.....Polk County

forgot to List the Donald R Sweetin.... no longer with us ...
172 0/8.....Arkansas County 1996 Completely legal P&Y Bowkill,,,, except for a
lighted sight pin on his bow.. with no battery in it...
Donald didn't know this was not legal at that time... Passed the ABBC lie
detector test at that time as I recall...
IMHO this should have been the P&Y standard for Arkansas

Also forgot to list the Forrest White P&Y Typical 168 7/8 ..... 1991 .... Newton County ...
As I recall .... was listed in B&C but ... can't find listing now.. gotta research this one...

Need help on this one if anyone know about Forrest White... Old razorback basketball player as I recall
 
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