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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Saw this ad last night. 3000 FPS and 3 inch groups at 300 yards with a muzzle-loader. :eek: It is a .45 shooting a 275 grain bullet at 3100 FPS. Prices start at the low, low, price of $1495. :-* http://www.badbullmuzzleloaders.com

While this is an amazing gun, it defeats the purpose of a muzzle-loader season. Wonder where it will end? Will this lead to no smokeless powder regs? Should it?
 

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That's pretty interesting, I know a couple of guys that shoot custom built, 200 yard + muzzleloaders, but mostly use them out west for Elk & Muleys. 1.5" @ 300 yards, that's impressive to say the least. I'm also wondering what new regs will come about in the next few years concerning "Primitive Weapons" seasons in most states, as new technology has really made an impact on muzzleloading.
 

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i will start to make someone mad. my opinion is if it's not a side lock it is not a primitive weapon. a muzzle loader that uses smokeless powder is not primitive at all. a compound cross bow to me is not a primitive weapon but i want one. re curve yes. ever see a indian in the history books shoot a compound bow. john wayne never shot back at a indian with one:razz:
have i ever owned a compound bow heck yes bought a Jennings back in the 1970's have i ever owned a inline muzzle loader yep a very accurate Knight. i just think that the well intended primitive weapon has been pushed to the modern weapon.
let the :censored: fly on this one :biggrin:
 

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As technology advances it becomes harder to draw lines bewteen primitive and modern hunting equipment. I'm of the opinion that primitive should be just that. However, as long as the weapons used are legal at the time, I won't say a thing against it.

I don't consider myself competing against in-line shooters; they are using legal equipment. If I choose to handicap myself with a flintlock because I like them doesn't give me the right to cry foul on somebody using more modern equipment-- as long as they're legal. It's a choice we all make for our own reasons.
 

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I have a scoped Knight inline, and it shoots good. Used to have a Thompson Renegade with the side hammer and set trigger, it shot good. I actually had more fun with the Renegade shooting them big ole Buffalo bullets, but hey, I had to upgrade.:biggrin:
 

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Savage has had a MZ out that will shoot smokeless powder for several years.
Do they specify powder flavors and charge weights? Do you measure smokeless powder in the field by weight or volume?? I suppose it's safer to carry smokeless powder than black powder, but it seems like the measurements would be much more critical. Just asking because I don't know!
 

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I'll shy from the modern/primitive argument.

I think there's sufficient opportunity for Mr. Murphy to render a tragedy with these rifles, for me to avoid them like the plague.

Still, each to his own I reckon.

Sincerely,
Tommy
 

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to me don't matter much if it is a inline or side lock to each his own i seldom hunt. only because finding land to hunt and my fat butt don't take to going up and down mt's i also have lung problems . if i had a ATV that i can't afford to buy. and property you bet i would lot more hunting. deer, predators. smaller critters .just seems with new technology every day. it has just crept up un primitive but if it's legal fine use em. :up:
 

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That "muzzleloading" vs. "primitive" thing is a pretty heated debate in some circles. :rolleyes: My personal opinion (and it is only that) is that the traditionalists also tend to be interested in the history, whereas the inline crowd just wants to go hunting. I fall into both categories, but I'm a hunter first and always have been.

I personally enjoy shooting patched roundballs (prb's) from sidelocks, both percussion and flintlock. I don't really consider it a handicap, of course I don't shoot 200 yards at deer, either. Just ain't the way I hunt, mebbe 'cuz I learned to hunt carrying a bow.

Having said that, I don't have anything against anybody who uses any legal means. If you want to shoot an inline I say more power to ya.

One thing I will say is that the more primitive style guns do seem to take a little more care for shooting. Notice I said "care," not "work." Shooting traditional-styled muzzleloaders forces you to slow down. That's relaxing. To me that's the point of a hobby anyway.

Another thing (nope, not a soapbox, just a comment) is that it is a bit of a myth that the inlines are much easier to clean and maintain than the traditional styles. If you actually timed yourself cleaning both types, you would find that yes, it does take a LITTLE longer to care for the older style gun - literally a minute or so longer, but not more than that. The asthetics make it worthwhile to me, but I realize that's not the same for everybody.

Whether the season should be "muzzleloading" or "primitive firearms" season, I don't know. I don't know if the original intent was to allow a primitive firearms hunt or if game populations simply permitted a few more days of some kind of hunting season. Either way that genie is out of the bottle I think.

How 'bout we keep the seasons we have now and then add a "primitive firearms" season?:biggrin:

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I'm still thinking about using smokeless powder in a front stuffer-- that just makes me cringe! :eek:

Well look at it this way--the seasons are set up to control the population and gender balance of the species. If another season is introduced, it will have to play a neccessary role in species management, or it wouldn't merit consideration by AGFC.

Bowhunting is a real tool for controlling deer herds near populated areas, whereas muzzleloaders and modern firearms need to be limited to more rural areas. I guess my point is, I don't see a special niche for muzzlestuffers that would merit a special season. Not that I wouldn't enjoy a flintlock-only season, I just don't see a viable argument for it.
 

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Hi flintknapper,

You're right of course, I was just dreamin'. :biggrin:

Not to change the subject, but I sometimes wonder if the game biologists really know what's going on out there. Not bad-mouthin' 'em 'er anythin', there's just a lot of ground for a very few people to cover.

I remember back in the early '90's, there was high water in large areas of southern Arkansas. The standing water eliminated a lot of the lower foliage growth along creek drainages and such.

A couple of game biologists came out and made sort of a big deal out of "scientifically" observing that there were so many deer that they had browsed way up high on the saplings and bushes - you could tell because there was no low growth. They thought the herd had way exceeded the carrying capacity of the land, when all that had really happened was high water.

I don't think that's typical game biologist work, but it happened.

I know where I live, we have had an abundance of does for several years, but it was only the last year or two that you didn't have to draw for a doe permit.

Long way around the barn for sure, but my point is there are lots of deer. I respect education and I respect hard work, and I think there is plenty of both amongst the folks what set our seasons.

But while I agree that an additional season won't be considered because they (AGFC) don't see a tangible justification for it, I do think the herd could stand an additional primitive firearms season, even if they needed to close bow season for a week to make it happen (don't shoot me, I'm a bowhunter too).

'Er mebbe it's all just a ex-cuse ta git more time in tha woods with ma muzzleloaders. :biggrin:

Oh, almost fergot. 'bout them "smokeless" muzzleloaders: http://hunting.about.com/b/2007/09/05/savage-smokeless-muzzleloader-review-brief.htm
Reckon tha market dun'n spoke on that...

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