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Antler Stats - us Poor South AR Hunters

22K views 279 replies 23 participants last post by  Allenn 
#1 ·
This chart pretty well shows what us south AR hunters have to fight when it comes to growing big deer. There is a reason south AR has pine plantations instead of beans and corn. Maybe "T" should start selling some of that Delta dirt to us south AR hunters.;)
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#3 ·
I don't doubt that farm raised deer are going to be bigger body wise and antler wise than hill deer or pine country deer as a rule, but that in no way means that giants can't be grown in any county of AR given time.
I don't know how much stock I would put in those numbers though, since there are no check staions to collect data on weights and main beam lengrhs. Seems like more agfc number snatching from their rectum.
 
#8 ·
Yes - a few big deer are grown in the south every year - but the majority will never be as big as the standard 3.5 yr old deer in the delta. A lot of this data is supplied by dmap participants.

I forgot to supply the disclaimer “if the data doesnt support your position, it is all made up”.;)
I've never argued that south ar deer are smaller on average than delta deer. What I have said is with good age structure any part of the state can produce giants in spite of the poor soil.
 
#7 ·
This chart compares deer of the same age. In general, south ar deer do not tend to get bigger after about 4.5 or 5.5 - so trying to get them to 6 or 7 isnt going to help. The few deer I have seen that were older than 5.5 were very sub standard. In general, our deer gain some mass but lose some points between 4.5 and 5.5. You might as well get them at 4.5. Yes, there is probably a freak out there somewhere that continues to get big.

I know of one ten pound bass that came out of lake greeson in 30 years - but that doesnt mean we should manage it as a trophy bass fishery.
 
#13 ·
Here is an example of a typical 2 1/2 year old using G&F standards buck. Killed this on a WMA MZ permit hunt. When carried to official bio check point went down in books as a 2 1/2 year old.


Are they aging him by just looking and weighing or are they actullay also looking at jawbones ? I admit it’s not 100% accurate , but from our years worth of pics and watching the same bucks it’s pretty close.
 
#31 ·
I'm going to throw out a different angle. I've seen more big racked deer down here in these piney hills the last 5 years than I've ever seen. Why? I think cameras, and social media are the big factors. I'm a little worried that because these are leases, the big buck mentality is going to bring in a different clientele. One that will pay a lot more money. I'm afraid what the landscape will look like in 10 years. Be careful what you wish for.
 
#34 ·
There could be something to that - I know of three 170 class bucks killed down here that probably aren't going to be at the BBC. I think hunters in general pass more deer - I have seen 8 yr old kids passing 2.5 yr old deer this year. So I think in general, statewide, that buck passing mentality is increasing. But, that said, we don't have nearly as many 125" and bigger deer now as we did five or six years ago at my place.
 
#56 ·
Soil matters a lot. There are areas like Crowley’s ridge that have great soil that isn’t necessarily farmable. It still grows some big deer because the native vegetation is nutritious.

Our place in south Tx is kind of the same way. There are no crops due to low rainfall, but the native vegetation produces some really big deer. Our average body weight on a mature buck is probably 50-60 lbs more than the hill country of central Tx that has poor and rocky soil. I used to hunt Camp Bullis outside San Antonio when I first moved here. The heaviest buck they had ever had up until then dressed 114 lbs. we’ve had a few that dressed 200 where I hunt now.

I’m not sure you could feed enough in south AR to match the deer from the delta without high fencing. Just planting food plots isn’t gonna do it unless you really work on improving the soil, and you’d still need a high fence or really big place.

You can occasionally find a big buck anywhere, but I don’t think south AR would match the delta or Crowley’s Ridge even if you let all the bucks get old. They’ll still be better at 4 than they would have been at 1 or 2.
 
#59 ·
Soil matters a lot. There are areas like Crowley’s ridge that have great soil that isn’t necessarily farmable. It still grows some big deer because the native vegetation is nutritious.

Our place in south Tx is kind of the same way. There are no crops due to low rainfall, but the native vegetation produces some really big deer. Our average body weight on a mature buck is probably 50-60 lbs more than the hill country of central Tx that has poor and rocky soil. I used to hunt Camp Bullis outside San Antonio when I first moved here. The heaviest buck they had ever had up until then dressed 114 lbs. we’ve had a few that dressed 200 where I hunt now.

I’m not sure you could feed enough in south AR to match the deer from the delta without high fencing. Just planting food plots isn’t gonna do it unless you really work on improving the soil, and you’d still need a high fence or really big place.

You can occasionally find a big buck anywhere, but I don’t think south AR would match the delta or Crowley’s Ridge even if you let all the bucks get old. They’ll still be better at 4 than they would have been at 1 or 2.
Real world experience and logic mean nothing here.;)

I agree - they are better at four than two yrs - no doubt. I just wish our four year old deer were better, antler quality wise. I know most folks usually wish for more - that's what keeps us going. Hunters in the vicinity kill some nice bucks every year that do no management whatsoever. No food plots, no feed - but they happened to have a piece of land positioned where that freak of nature happened to be calling home that year. In our part of the country, anything larger than a 150 is a freak. You can pass every buck you see for ten years and probably not increase your odds of seeing one. You can spend every dime of your money on food plots and supplements and non get you there - you just cant manage for those freaks in open range.
 
#65 ·
T I will give you some statics at the end of season here in La it’s the same exact ground as Arkansas where I hunt less than 30 miles away . It’s a little over 15000 acres wasn’t hunted for the last 5 years so plenty of time to grow mature deer. They allowed 178 adult hunters this year not counting there kids. The rules is 8 point or better must be killed. I can tell you this the average of the deers horns have not went up very much if any from 5 years before when there was a annual season allowed when all the final results come in I will post. My point is even with a short gun season the deer aren’t going to get any bigger.
 
#66 ·
Look, I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings but it's simple. If you guys down south want to grow bigger horns, which is what this thread is about, you have 2 choices. You can supplement their diet which swampcat says will cost 400,000,000 a year, or, you can play the averages. If only 10 percent of bucks reach 130 and you have 10 bucks that live to maturity you will have 1 130 plus buck. If you allow 100 bucks to reach maturity, you will have 10 bucks that reach 130 plus. So the easiest and cheapest way is to saturate the area with bucks and let em get old. It's really thay simple.
 
#77 ·
I do agree that if you are within carrying capacity you are more likely to see a big one if you have more mature bucks.
What percentage of the bucks you see are mature? When we do our counts it’s been fairly consistent over the years that about 25% of the bucks we see are 4 1/2 or older. I’m not sure what would be ideal. I only killed one buck over 4 1/2 when I lived in AR, but that was over 20 yrs ago. I remember hunting all year to see a doe or spike in the 80s.

SwampCat made a comment earlier that a 150+ was a freak where he hunts. I think our place is pretty well managed in an area with good soil, and a 150 is still a really good deer.
I’d bet I’ve seen at least 60-80 bucks this year and haven’t seen a 150. I probably see 150-200 different bucks a year. Most years I see maybe 2 that are 150+. I did have one fluke year where conditions were perfect where I saw 10-12 over 150 ( I thought 4 would have made 160), but 150 is still a really nice deer. I think you have to be realistic. I’d bet considerably less than 10% of mature bucks ever hit 150.
Most guys hunting in the delta don’t see 150s. That’s a nice deer anywhere except a pen.
 
#79 ·
I do agree that if you are within carrying capacity you are more likely to see a big one if you have more mature bucks.
What percentage of the bucks you see are mature? When we do our counts it’s been fairly consistent over the years that about 25% of the bucks we see are 4 1/2 or older. I’m not sure what would be ideal. I only killed one buck over 4 1/2 when I lived in AR, but that was over 20 yrs ago. I remember hunting all year to see a doe or spike in the 80s.

SwampCat made a comment earlier that a 150+ was a freak where he hunts. I think our place is pretty well managed in an area with good soil, and a 150 is still a really good deer.
I’d bet I’ve seen at least 60-80 bucks this year and haven’t seen a 150. I probably see 150-200 different bucks a year. Most years I see maybe 2 that are 150+. I did have one fluke year where conditions were perfect where I saw 10-12 over 150 ( I thought 4 would have made 160), but 150 is still a really nice deer. I think you have to be realistic. I’d bet considerably less than 10% of mature bucks ever hit 150.
Most guys hunting in the delta don’t see 150s. That’s a nice deer anywhere except a pen.
We have killed one 150" deer in 14 years. We have seen a couple of others. I don't know how many mature deer we have seen between all seasons combined, maybe four or five mature deer per year. Even when you have mature deer around, they are hard to see. We don't near about see mature deer in the ratios they actually exist. On my place this year, we had four mature deer - maybe three or four 3.5 yr old, probably three or four 2.5 yr olds, and six or eight 1.5 yr olds. So, maybe 20 bucks, with the mature deer making up 20% of them. Of all our sightings, the mature deer sightings probably accounted for .5% of the total. And we have more bucks per acre than the average ground.
 
#80 ·
If I see 200 deer on our place in a year and 25% are mature, that means 50 mature deer. In an average year I see maybe 2 in the 150s ( a wet year may be a lot more, but those are exceptions for us). That’s only 4% of the mature bucks that I see in an average year that break 150. I’ve you’re only seeing 4 mature bucks a year it’s gonna take a long time to see a 150 even if you’re percentages are the same. Maybe 1 every 6 yrs if your percentages are the same. I’m hunting way more land and likely have better soil. I don’t think you’re doing bad at all on 280 acres.
 
#82 ·
Remember something I heard James Kroll say in a seminar talk I was at years ago. I think the man knows a lot about deer facts and figures. Don’t agree with all he says but he is pretty spot on when it comes to the biological aspects. Said on an average, if a whitetail buck was allowed to live his full life and die of natural causes, his largest rack (maybe not his last) of a normal buck would be around 130 inches. He went on to say that deer with 150 racks accounted for around 1 in 10,000, and deer with 175 racks, 1 in 20,000 Plus.

Now, based on if info is valid, and that 130 inch statement is true, in a lot of area’s quite a few deer are reaching close to max, if not over in average potential. And for those odds of 150’s and 175’s, just by the ones brought to the sports shows we seem to be beating those odds. 100,000 bucks harvested in state, by those odds only 10 150 inch deer should appear and only 5 175 inch deer. We beating that now just from what is made public. Many I am 100% positive for sure that are several not made public.
 
#83 ·
The studies I’ve seen showed about 5-10% of wild bucks would hit 150 at some point in their life if they live to old age. I’m sure that varies based on location. I’d say that’s pretty close to what we see on our place. Sometimes they barely break 150, then go down the next year if conditions aren’t good. I’d say of the 3,000 or so bucks I’ve seen over the years on our place ( many of those were the same buck watched for multiple years- realistically 200 bucks a year) I’ve seen MAYBE 10 that would break 160 and 1 for sure 170s, and we’re in an area known to produce B&C deer.

I think the tv shows and magazines have produced some unrealistic expectations. Very few of the TV shows show free range deer.
 
#86 ·
If you want bigger bucks then I think cutting 2 weeks of gun season would be great. It wouldn't affect me however. I hunt in zone 5 in clay county on Crowley's ridge. I will give my experiences though. My family owned 80 acres out of a 320 acre block that was all owned by friends. We had 80, another guy had an 80, another had a 40, and another had a 120. This was in zone 3 around horseshoe bend around 15-20 years ago. We had that property before the 3pt rule went into effect and during the first 3pt rule. We would see plenty of does and might kill a spike or a fork horn. We occasionally killed a basket racked 8. However once gun season came in, we wouldn't hardly see a deer after the second weekend. We sold that land and bought 155 acres on the ridge in clay county. It is predominantly bow hunting and the pressure is way less. We do have a smaller deer herd in general but we have enough to hunt. There are some nice bucks also. Hence the reason that I stopped running cameras before season and up until gun season. A few years ago I got obsessed with a buck that I had on camera. It was a true 160"+ giant. I let several nice bucks walk and ended up eating tag soup that year. I hunted him hard. But to no avail. Now I only put my cameras out after the second weekend of gun season, just to give me an idea of what might make it till next year. I checked my cameras this past Sunday after being out for only 1 week. These are a few of the bucks that are roaming around. Also here is the buck I killed this year.
 

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#88 ·
Anybody know if the same type data is available for inches or score or buck racks? I dont see a lot of difference in the numbers presented.
Bottom line to me is try to shoot good bucks for your area vs trying to grow b and c bucks on ground that simply cant do it. If a 130 inch buck is the best you see on trail cameras or from the stand then shoot anythin within 10 jnches of that and be proud to have killed as big a buck as there is around them parts.
Id like to kill a giant some day but I know it would be a freak for where I hunt as is the case for a lot of us so why not be happy with what god gave us and if affordable go hunt a place where odds are a lot better of getting a bigger racked buck occasionally. Its about the hunt is what Im saying. Hunt for the mature deer in the area and if successful you will feel good about it knowing that if you had done that in some places that would have been a 150 or better.
I havent seriously looked into it but someday would like to deer hunt in a few other states where mature bucks are 140 vs 120 around here and a stud is 160 plus vs 130 plus here.
I am no expert but to me at 3.5 a buck is mature and almost at his potential. 4.5 yrs old is prime to kill. There will be freaks that are 150plus at 4.5 but most wont ever be that big regardless of what they eat or drink.
 
#95 ·
When I first got on our lease we each got one buck tag. That’s 10 buck tags on 6000 acres. Knowing you only had 1 buck tag and were seeing multiple bucks made you really particular about pulling the trigger.
It is true that most AR hunters don’t kill more than one buck, but I bet they would be a lot slower to pull the trigger on a young buck if they knew that was their only tag.
 
#117 ·
SwampCat- I’ve got a buddy that has 250 acres he bought about 10-12 yrs ago. He got really fed up that his neighbors were shooting everything that walked and put up a high fence 2 yrs after he bought it. He has 3 protein feeders that he uses year round and also feeds corn. He culls pretty aggressively.
He sells a few “hunts” to offset cost.
Three guys came in last weekend and shot these 3 bucks. Smallest was 154 and largest was 205.
I’m not a fan of high fence “hunting”,but if you’re looking to consistently see 150+ bucks on a place your size in your location there really isn’t another way other than to put up a fence and feed like crazy.
 
#118 ·
SwampCat- I’ve got a buddy that has 250 acres he bought about 10-12 yrs ago. He got really fed up that his neighbors were shooting everything that walked and put up a high fence 2 yrs after he bought it. He has 3 protein feeders that he uses year round and also feeds corn. He culls pretty aggressively.
He sells a few “hunts” to offset cost.
Three guys came in last weekend and shot these 3 bucks. Smallest was 154 and largest was 205.
I’m not a fan of high fence “hunting”,but if you’re looking to consistently see 150+ bucks on a place your size in your location there really isn’t another way other than to put up a fence and feed like crazy.
How many bucks will he kill off his place each year?
 
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