The lost days of Bowhunting

[John Stiles]

Hello, This is my first visit to this particular site, I found it while looking for the A.B.A. site I lost when my machine crashed. I've seen most of the feelings about those 15 or so days in Feb. that were taken away, before, and I guess you could say I understand both sides of the arguement. I would interject, however; that the subject seems to adopt subtle changes as you cross the different situations: (a.) Management area hunting (b.) Hunting lease (c.)private land (d.) public land......etc! Universally however, the main gripe is just about the "lost days". As far as I'm concerned, you can keep those freezing cold days in Feb. I usually hunt alone, and always up a tree, that said, I always let someone know where I'll be. That way, if I fall out, or get hurt going to my stand, sooner or LATER, I'll be found. I'd just as soon be alive rather than "freshly frozen"! Therein lies my main gripe about the lost days. Billy Collins and myself talked about the odds of getting the days in Sept. instead. He said that the commisioner's only arguement was "TooHot"! Well, I don't know about y'all, but I believe I could survive in 90 degree weather better than in 10 degree! Don't mis-understand me, I understand everyones concerns about getting "trimmed" down 15 days, I'm just saying, there's a better arguement for getting them back in the last half of Sept., one of them being: Squirrel hunting opens right on top of archery deer, and all that blasting of shotguns just destroys the concept Nelson has about deer running to feed, and other arguements about deer running after does, and still more about hunting over food plots. Deer aren't stupid, every year, when those guns start blasting, THEY GO NOCTURNAL! Thats what I'm talking about, and I'm sticking to it!

[longbow hunter]

Good points John,

I'm sure everyone would be happy to get the days back whenever they could. I like the September idea. But then again, I sometimes like the bitter cold days of February. It's nice not fighting mosquitoes. I don't think shortening the season saved many deer, if any at all. Anyone who hunts much will have plenty of chances to fill their tags and kill all the deer they want. Where I hunt (zone 15) the limit is 3 and anyone who sits in a stand much can kill 3 deer. Most hunters pass some deer so they can keep hunting and enjoying the outdoors. Just because a deer runs to a feeder doesn't mean it is going to be shot. Sometimes its nice just to watch them. I can assure you that someone hunting in February has a passion for bowhunting and isn't there just to kill deer. Sometimes I hunt in February and sometimes I don't, but I sure did hate to lose the opportunity to go if I wanted. As far as baiting goes, I don't know of anyone who has killed a mature buck over corn and the does and small bucks run to it in October as well as February. just my 2 cents :thumb:

[WarblerWatcher]

I much prefer the cool crisp days of mosquito free February than I do the hot mosquito and snake infested days September. :wink:

[possum]

I much prefer the cool crisp days of mosquito free February than I do the hot mosquito and snake infested days September. :wink:

:thumb:

[John Stiles]

I just don't get it, I guess.....never have been able to bait deer. As fer muskitos(muskies) don't it get cold in Alaska.....don't seem to slow the bugs down much. Usually by the time the purple martins migrate, all them muskies are eat-up 'round here. Anyway, I do a lot of sittin' in trees and enjoy watchin the black fox squirrel in the tree next to me or the mama coon eatin acorns I just cain't sit in a tree and be still when the mercury is below about 30. Whats up w/all the velvet hunts in other states?? Anybody in Ark got a trophy wallhanger in full velvet?? There's a cedar tree on most of my trails and when I get thru rubbin those green boughs all over me, deer don't smell me neither do the muskie find me!

[BigPiney]

I'd take the two weeks back any way I could get 'em. But if we're talkin 'druther's', I'd prefer to get em back in late Feb. This past Feb. I saw deer on every single hunt, including shooter bucks. They seemed to be back in their normal feed/sleep pattern. As far as the weather, it was quite pleasant out there this past Feb., except for the rain. Temperatures were very similar to what they are now...sometimes even warmer. January is where you'll find the 10 degree bitter cold. Let's take out two weeks of Jan. and add two weeks back to Feb...(kidding LOL). To me, Feb. bowhunting is Oct. bowhunting without the hot weather, ML hunters, snakes, bugs, brush, briars, leaves on trees, etc...

[ABA53]

All

The ABA board meeting will be this Friday night. On the Agenda will be an item addressing your question of a September opening for the bowseason. Who knows how the AGFC commissioners would react to such a proposal. It has been discussed with some of them and some of the personal. It will only be a discussion and if anything comes from the idea it would not happen until the 06-07 season.

The feedback that I have gotten so far indicates that North Arkansas favors an earlier opening and South Arkansas favors the days back in February.

Tom White

[John Stiles]

I got ya,.....so the 10 degree weather in Jan. killed the no-see-ums and skeeters. Yeah, I do see a lot more deer in Feb., most of um smoothies...all real skinny. Lord knows I need the meat, but it seems to taste better right after the crops in our garden have ripened....and been picked.....a lot by deer. People w/crops rather ya opened the season in June and let it go til xmas!! Thats funny to me about those bucks still havin horns, most had "dropped" in Dallas Co. by the xmas hunt. Mostly sixes and fours, but I found a huge left side, would'a been a ten maybe more if he had stickers or drops on the other side. Ain't found it yet, I'm hoping to so I'll know he made it! Main beam measured 25 inches with the g2 of 9" and a brow of 6"! I'll be watchin the garden and the pear tree this year! Preciate the kick-back: John

[John Stiles]

Could be partly true x'cept me and a lot of my bowhunting bro's want the late velvet opportunity. The all go out and sit their stands in Sept. and get really excited when telling about the one they saw, and how they would've loved to had their bows! If we don't get the solitude of the sept. hunt, I guess we'll just have to live with shootin' them w/cameras or 'corders. I sure wish there were more who would like to have a "Velvet Trophy" class! Oh, well, Arkansas seems to always be the end of the tail when it comes to making in-roads in history. ....John

[Earnhardt fan #1]

Have found in recent days that most states east of here do open in September but I personally don't think its a good Idea just give us back the days we last as they were :thumb: TO DANG HOT some times even for chasing tree rats :eek:

[John Stiles]

I keep hearing the "too hot" arguement.....just what does that mean? Like, will I lose a few pounds because its too hot, or my brain might fry, wild game tastes like rubber when it's hot....or, can I predict that a waterhole would be a good spot for a stand? Somebody tell me! What does that mean??.....John....P.S. Anybody remember breaking a sweat, or gettin eat up by skeeters, while manuevering into range of a big ole fat gobbler with a 12" necktie?

[Earnhardt fan #1]

Good point John :thumb:

[John Stiles]

Hey, Earnhardt Fan#1, Where is ever-body?? This site is almost as slow as ABA's post. I guess for most Archers, when the seasons over......its over. Is anybody going to Mayflower for the Spring Shoot and Banquet? Maybe they'll try to hatch out a plan for possible future velvet hunts? Gas went to $2.03 pg this week which killed my desire to drive that long way. Sure wish I knew some batchelor(s) with a bus or somethin big goin that way! I guess its too late to try to get something together for this weekend though.....but dang, how many people usually put their two cents in around here? Lets get a grass roots movement goin for the last half of Sept. I promise I'll try to learn how to bait deer.......someday!....John in L.A.(lower Arkansas)

[Bowcrazy]

John I also would like to see the days back in Sept.But the main thing here is to just get them back.

[John Stiles]

I couldn't agree with you more....reason being, in my opinion; the commission needed a sacrificial lamb, so that those poor doghunters wouldn't get to thinkin' about how they were the only ones getting shot outta their tree.....so to speak. Who shins do you suppose they'll try to "bark" next? The black powder/pyrodex/pellet-popping, sabot slinging, smoke pole-ers? Maybe they'll just make them wear some additional accoutrement....how about orange striped tuxedo, and a moose antlered hat? Lets ask ole Sheff. What d'ya say?......John

[Earnhardt fan #1]

You mean the season is closed :confused:

Na just kiddding there but I have been shed huntin' :biggrin: and shootin em with my camera :thumb:

[F B]

I dont know where youve been but we've had a grass roots campaign around here to get the days back for almost two years and they havent listened to a word of it.

Other than maybe antler restrictions its probably the most talked about topic on the forum.

We've also sent emails and made phone calls but apparently nothing is working cause they wont even bring it up for discussion or another vote.

The only thing I can figure from that is that theyre done with it and its something they dont want to address anymore or that somebody on the Commission who doesnt think bowhunters should get the days back has an awful lot of pull.

[CP]

""somebody on the Commission who doesnt think bowhunters should get the days back has an awful lot of pull.""

Son, I will drink to that....and I was told not to drink...:thumb:

[John Stiles]

You're probably right about "pull" and since the "commisioners" were appointed, not elected, they figure that they don't have to recognize anything we say. What they don't figure on, however; is how large a constituancy, bowhunters represent. Mostly, probably because they keep hearing from the same few, devoted activist, on the subject. The answer to this problem has subtle implications, one of them being, whom you chose to complain to. Now I'm not trying to sound like a smart-alec, but where does an 800 pound gorilla sleep? Anywhere he wants. What I mean is; don't sing melodies to a deaf ear[thats what the commisioners appear to be], instead, recruit every bowhunter you meet, there are huge numbers of them who haven't joined the "church of Archers", and if we had just a third of them, we could make a rule, to "change the rule", that they, the commision has the say-so! We might get big enough, to spank the Gov. his self! Think about it for awhile: John

[CDay]

Myself I have been pushing for the September opener of bow season befroe any cuts were to the season. Myself I would rather give the whole month of February in exchange for the whole month of September. I too would like the opportunity for a velvet trophy. Also deer seem to still be in their summer pattern in September. Also I believe for the betterment of the deer herd it would be better to harvest does early in the season than later in the season. This would mainly be helpful for the breeding season/rut and also would remove a few more mouths feeding on the bounty of food sources available during the fall of the year.

[bwhntr]

I'm going with CDay on this one. I've really been pushing to get our days back,but in exchange for this,I'd take the whole month of September. Before the small game hunters begin arriving.Nothing against them, but would be fairly quiet for a few weeks.

[John Stiles]

Good thinkin', and excellent point, Cday, if we keep coming up with this type of reasoning the commission will give the job of game management back to the trusty hunters.....or should I say Trustees! After all, we are, by virtue of our hard earned dollars, supporting the whole kit and caboodle. Thats what I'm talkin' about...."we the Hunters, in order to to form a more satisfactory hunting experience, establish hunter's rights, insure RATIONAL game management,................etc...etc...! John

[F B]

As much as most of us seem to disagree with the bow season cuts and the reasons for them, I dont think I really like the idea of the Governor or government in general getting involved with setting season lengths, etc.

[John Stiles]

I dont either, but thats exactly what we got, nobody who gives a big cahoot about how we feel. We got Congressmen, State Representatives who listen to our problems then do something about them! And if you've never written to one of them, you need to try, you won't believe how interested they are about what you have to say. That's how the game and fish commission should be. And in order for it to be so, we'd have to be a part of WHO gets to serve on that commission! Right now, it's mostly a good-ole-boy, program, where the Gov. gets to appoint his huntin' buddies! Thats why we need to pull all the bowhunters in together, for power, to effect change(in bowhunting)! All, under one auspice, then make a plan and stick to it, til we see results! I've seen it done before! I know it'll work, if we can all work towards the same goal. If everybody(or majority) wants Feb., then we all work towards that goal, if everybody(majority) wants Sept., then we all, to a man, without exception, work together towards that goal! Just my idea of how to get results. Even if it doesn't work, we'll earn some respect for working together. John

[CP]

A few comments on this…as we have hashed this in and out a bunch. Opinion only, directed at ME.

We are damn lucky that the majority does not rule. The majority don’t bow hunt. The majority gun hunt.

The true majority don’t .hunt …anything ..period. They could give a long-frog-jump if the bow season is one day long or not but most would vote Not. Oh, we are talking of the “hunters” only. Sorry, that ain’t how the vote goes. Since all pay the tax, all can vote.

Since the long bow season first started we bow hunters have migrated from a small group that was only trying to fit into a shotgun toting, dog running group of hard core deer hunters that really had as soon break your Pearson Take Down over your butt. Our present attitude has slowly evolved to the point that we expect to be coddled and if a decision comes down that does not meet our expectations, we fall apart. WE start calling names and personal stuff.

Can anyone remember how us bow hunters acted when the cross-bow was first discussed as becoming legal. You would think that the total end of deer hunting was only a year or two away. Cross-bow poaching would ruin us. TN is going through the same thing now. See what present day bow hunters are saying there. Why do WE want it all to ourselves?

I am, have been, and always will be a bow hunter. I do however, back the AG&F Commissioners one hundred percent in their overall management of our game resources. I cannot always agree with them, but what else is new? These seven persons, who are not on a salary, are trying to do a service for us hunters. I think they are all honestly doing what they believe is best for the wildlife. That is their first task. Their secondary purpose is to supply us a reasonable opportunity to be afield and enjoy the benefits of those wildlife.

For my hunting purpose, four months up a tree is plenty. I do think that if you want more days, we need to change our tactics. If you were one of the Commissioners and was taking a character hit due to your beliefs, you would tighten your pucker string and show the ones attacking you a reality check on the way things actually works

. That old “More Bees with Honey” thingy.

[octoberbuck]

I dont either, but thats exactly what we got, nobody who gives a big cahoot about how we feel. We got Congressmen, State Representatives who listen to our problems then do something about them! And if you've never written to one of them, you need to try, you won't believe how interested they are about what you have to say. That's how the game and fish commission should be. And in order for it to be so, we'd have to be a part of WHO gets to serve on that commission! Right now, it's mostly a good-ole-boy, program, where the Gov. gets to appoint his huntin' buddies! Thats why we need to pull all the bowhunters in together, for power, to effect change(in bowhunting)! All, under one auspice, then make a plan and stick to it, til we see results! I've seen it done before! I know it'll work, if we can all work towards the same goal. If everybody(or majority) wants Feb., then we all work towards that goal, if everybody(majority) wants Sept., then we all, to a man, without exception, work together towards that goal! Just my idea of how to get results. Even if it doesn't work, we'll earn some respect for working together. John

John,
Here's a plan for you and a challenge to the other bow hunting groups. I'll pay for a booth at the next deer hunting expo if you 'll put together a plan and the other bow hunting groups will match with a booth at a following deer expo. You can petition, cry on a shoulder, hand out literature, show films whatever. Not trying to be smart but time for talking is over and now it's time to do something!!

[Keith de Noble]

Prabbit and John Stiles:

You both make very good points. Let me bring you up to date a bit.

The subject of giving the bowhunters their days back to the end of February came up during the last two AGF Commission work days (the meeting before the main meeting). In both cases one particular commissioner (the one CP may be referring to as getting a tight pucker string) very successfully shut down any further discussion. It's a dead issue this year!
Now, don't think folks ain't working on this, because they are. The work being done is by a few folks whose duties are to work with the staff and commissioners in a direct, sensible, and methodical manner.
However, we should all still work together, express our opinions, and keep up reasonable and logical pressure.
By the way, I too believe the commissioners are doing what they think is best. However, through the years there have been times when certain commissioners have made mistakes. This is one of those times.

I've said it before, and I'll continue to say it - We will not give up the fight to get our days back.

[firehog]

Thats why we need to pull all the bowhunters in together, for power, to effect change(in bowhunting)! All, under one auspice, then make a plan and stick to it, til we see results! I've seen it done before! I know it'll work, if we can all work towards the same goal. If everybody(or majority) wants Feb., then we all work towards that goal, if everybody(majority) wants Sept., then we all, to a man, without exception, work together towards that goal! Just my idea of how to get results. Even if it doesn't work, we'll earn some respect for working together. John

John have you heard about the ADHA? The power is not in just in one method of deer hunting, its in the deer hunters them selves as one. We can be much stronger and accomplish more, by all of us fighting for each others methods, practices, etc. The key is to understand, we share the same sport. And many cross over in different methods. But we must realize and accept each others methods before it can work. We have to think outside of methods, and think one common thing and thats deer hunting, as a whole.

The name of the game is acceptance of ones perfered method, even if you don't practice the method. Until that happens we will continue to stuggle, and the AGFC will continue to try to appease everyone and sort through all the complaints best they can.

The ADHA is attempting to do just as I spoke, and I must say, we are seeing some change in the minds of some deerhunters. It has to start somewhere, and hopefully it will continue and grow, but it must take guys like you to spread the word and see their is a better way of accomplishing things..

Don't get me wrong, I am not against guys fighting for their single method if thats all they do, but if your a two or three method hunter, which I suspect many are, the concept of supporting all is worth the effort. And it would be better to see single method hunters support all, for the payback can be a stronger force.

[firehog]

Have you ever made a decision at work or home that you knew needed to be made at least for a period of time. And after making that decision you got criticized for the decision, and the criticism turned into personal attacks and then turned into blatant disregard to personal respect? I have, and let me say, it happens quite often, in my profession and the world of politics that govern our world. Once those lines have been crossed, its real hard to smooth things over. Especially when the decision effects a minority. People of power in our government must be respected to certain degrees, and even though you may not like the decisions made, you really need to think long and hard about how you go about getting that certain decision changed down the road. And how you go about getting that reversal will set precedent for years to come.

I don't care who you are, once some certain lines have been crossed, and you get into the personal realm of disrespecting someone, you lose your own respect from the one that made the decision. And when he, who has the power, that made the decision, its a game of when he wants to change his decision. Like it or not, thats a fact.

[John Stiles]

Yep, you got that right....and I mostly agree with everything said. The thing I don't readily agree with is appointing Commisioners on a strictly popularity basis. I think, in many endeavers, one would hope to get the qualified person imbedded into the particular slot he/she is best qualified for. Hunting IS a very broad practice and as such, has many technical factors, that sometimes are manipulated more by conjecture, than science. Probably because hunting was re-invented in Arkansas, some time after most of the "game" was depleteded by over harvesting...personified! Having said that, I think we could all agree, the situation has blossomed into quite a magnanamus achievement. Effected as much by the love of hunting as by those who hate hunters. So, everything, must be thought out and researched and picked apart, to make sure that decisions are made professionally, and in such a way as to offend the least. So far, I'm not seeing much science, in adding or delete-ing 15 days, whether it be the bow season, or be it jumping outta yer tree with nothing but a hunting knife(which I'll admit, I've thought about) as the ultimate primitive experience. Never mind whether you could let anyone do it in June, if that was his persuasion(sp)? Lets agree, to agree, that the ones who spend their love in the forest, also understand the forest, to the extent that those raised in the kitchen, know how to cook. Let no commissioner close his mind to reason, but reply to reasoned questions/suggestions, with well thought out, professional, and reasonable answers. I'm really interested, in improving the experience of hunting for everyone involved. It never gets "TOO HOT" to co-operate...John P/S I hope I did that process properly, Keith, I'm new at this format. JS.

[John Stiles]

Yes, Firehog, I do understand what you mean about the "all method" concept of hunter type, and thats me. Its me more because I'm disabled, than because of job responsibility, honey do's, kids day, or the price of gasoline, as I suspect IS... probably the case for most hunters! But I happen to know that many hunters go home empty-handed, even with the many days many methods consideration, so we do have much opportunity. I also understand, that the whole experience for some, is sport, for others, necessity[food], still others, tradition. I just happen to believe, the way to go, is to "fan out" and relieve the pressure on the hunters, as well as the hunted, for an over-all, more pleasing experience, which will result in less "Line Crossing" and more respect for the power that be! John

[firehog]

I think, in many endeavers, one would hope to get the qualified person imbedded into the particular slot he/she is best qualified for. Hunting IS a very broad practice and as such, has many technical factors, that sometimes are manipulated more by conjecture, than science

I can't imagine being in the position of making regs and finding solutions from every game aspect out there. Between all fishing regs to hunting regs to budgets, to land management, to everything they do. One would really need to be sensable person, in making sound decision. I can't really comprehend the full task it is to deal with every game aspect in this state. And not just game aspects but personnel, budgets, legal issues, management issues, property issues, its mind boggling to set here and think seven folks have ultimate final say on everything thats done. One would be a fool to not understand there are many folks in support of helping them make decisions, but still its gotta be a daunting task.

And not only dealing with every aspect of the game and fish department, but dealing with the public, and the decisions that are made.

Are whole government is set up in the same fashion, just like many city governments all across the state. We have city council members everywhere making decisions based on what the public wants and what the different departments in the city say they can provide and some making decisions on their own. It would not be wise to go against what a department head suggest, especially if you have no background in the area, your making the decision on, but it happens everyday. That puts alot of folks in very hard positions, especially if your caught in the middle, and especially if your a department head, or a employee. Its tuff all around..

[CDay]

First of all the cutting back two weeks of archery season is a real good example of the mistake of managing wildlife on the basis of public opinion. Alot of were we are today is because decisions were based more on public opinion and not on biologicial information. After getting the chance to talk to some of our biologist in this state and other states, all they can do is the same as us and make recommendations to the commissioners concerning seasons and bag limits. Alot of what we are under now some of these biologist do not agree with. But these few biologist are way out numbered when it comes to the out spoken opinions of hunters. Remeber the saying the loudest squeaky wheel get the grease first. Also there are some bowhunters who believe and would like to season bow season close earlier than Febraury 15th. Just like me, my preference deep in my heart is to close deer season Jan. 31, but I can not find any biological information to support this, so I do not push it. Now I can find biological information to support opening archery earlier. But the biggest majority of hunters are basing their opinions on what they want or have observed and not on any biological information. Even though alot do not agree with my views and opinions when it comes to deer management, I still can find biological information to support them just the same as some have found bological information to support being against my opinions and views. It all comes down to what biologist you want to believe. But the relativity is the majority of hunters are only concerned with deer season 4 months out of the year at the most. The rest of the year they do not even think about it much, better less research any biological information. But here in recent years alot of out spoken hunters have started sending or letting their opinions be heard concerning seasons and baglimits. This has been overwhelming in the last few years to these seven commissioners and alot of those opinions are not backed by good sound biological information. This overwhelming response of opinions can and has been so much that it drowns out any biological backed recommendations. Probably the best thing all hunters could do is back out and shut up and let the professionals get back to working with the commisioners setting up seasons and bag limits like it used to be done. This is why I have backed out of supporting large hunting groups, because most of the time they will be supporting its member's opinions and wants with out any biological backing resulting in being more part of the problem than part of the solution.

Also before anyone chimes in about not seeing any biologist working in their area, especially concerning the deer herd, first stop and think. Most of their work is done in the hours of darkness when the majority of deer activity is going on. This is one reason alot of hunters do not agree with the information our biologist come up with. The biologist are making most of their observation in the greatest period of deer activity and hunters are making most of their observations during the lowest period of deer activity.

[John Stiles]

Roger that, so we really need a "task force" made up of the different aspects of governing[not to be confused w/politics]our sport, as you mentioned. I may be naive, but; I believe we have a wealth of decidedly scientific "young guns" coming out of Arkansas colleges, who have the needed expertise, and knowlege, in all the fields you mention, who by the way are job hunting as we speak! I sincerely hope, as I re-read some of the comments, that "I" haven't offended anyone or crossed the line into no-mans land, with the exception of the a-double-s comment about myself. I'm completely sincere when I say I'm interested in seeing "peace in the valley" for everyone concerned. P/S I shot my first chipmonk outta the fork of a Fir tree in Lake Tahoe[with longbow]at 14, since then I've been hande x-bows several times, just never could see carrying it very far, and since becoming disabled, worked very hard to be able to keep up with todays class of bowhunter. Found a Browning compound at a yardsale for $10.00, that I could draw well, it's old but sound and shoots well. I'm no threat to win any tournament though, just a dyed in the wool, hunter!....JS

[firehog]

Clyde, I couldn't disagree with you more on this statement--Probably the best thing all hunters could do is back out and shut up and let the professionals get back to working with the commisioners setting up seasons and bag limits like it used to be done.

If you go back five years ago, the game and fish set up the first ever Deer stratgic plan, we have never had the tools we have now that help us in making sound decisions based on biological data.. We have done night infrared surveys of White river, Wattensaw, Black swamp, Choctaw, and a few other delta areas, never have we done this before. Basically what I'm saying is your statement go back to what it used to be, is not the best idea. I have been directly told, that regs, season limits, etc on deer were based on assumptions at best in the past. Now we have the tools to make better decisions, technology wise and knowledge from studies etc.

We are conducting CWD test in every county, and are trying to balance the hunters wants on quality verse quanity. Hunters have to be active in this process. The deer surveys handed out last year is a major factor in helping in the data area. Thats hunters helping in a positive way. The DMAP program is gonna give some good information to us in time. Its showing good early signs already.

But I must go back and say, hunters must help, and be active, Take that away, and you got 7 guys and a few biologists making decisions based on a very narrow spectrum, you must have a broader spectrum to achieve better results.

On your last paragraph, I couldn't agree more with that statement..

[firehog]

I believe we have a wealth of decidedly scientific "young guns" coming out of Arkansas colleges, who have the needed expertise, and knowlege, in all the fields you mention, who by the way are job hunting as we speak!

Sure do John, and many work for the AGFC. But many don't, due to the salary limits compared to private company salaries. But none the less, folks hire on and get the needed experince and then move on to more lucrative job offers..

Many things they do or not do is limited to funds, and I have learned their no different than most companies, and that is money is always a issue. The University of Arkansas holds the infrared camera the AGFC use in its field surveys, it cost over $100,000. With technology getting better and prices falling, hopefully we will soon have our own camera in the gane and fish. One that can be used on the ground. The hill regions cannot be survey from the air at night so we lack in surveys in the hill regions. Hopefully this will change soon..But its a example of experince and knowledge is not necassary the problem, but money for technology sometimes is...Good chatting with you John and Clyde,,,better hit the sack,,,and talk to ya'll later..

[CDay]

Apparently you read into my statement or I did not make myself clear. No I do not want to go back to making guess decisions, but I also do not want decisions made primarily on public opinions and wants either. They have all of this new and advanced data today. So why don't we sit back and leave these professionals and commissioners alone and let them use it. But the problem is also that at the same time more hunters have overwhelmed the decision process with their opinions and wants in the last 5 years as well. The problem is I believe the overwhelming public input anymore is drowning out alot of this new advanced data and the biologist are not being heard. I have yet to meet and talk to any biologist for the state of Arkansas that believes shortening the bow season was a good idea and can not find any reason to support such a cut. But I have heard hunter opinions that supported such cuts and still want more cuts to bow season. So with that what do you think the real decision was based on, opinion/wants or sound biological data?

The point is lets let these professionals use this new collected data and work with the 7 commissioners to make the best decisions concerning seasons and bag limits.

I have no problems with the part of hunters working with these professionals collecting data, such as the bowhunter observation sheets this year. But it is working with them, not telling them what you want or what they should be doing.

[deerhunter]

I dont think we lost the two weeks of bow season because of public opinion. It's nice to know that our voice is heard and when applicable our voice can used in concert with the data.

[deerhunter]

I also would love to have back the two weeks that were taken from the archery season but not in September but the actual two weeks that were taken from the end of February.

[CDay]

I dont think we lost the two weeks of bow season because of public opinion. It's nice to know that our voice is heard and when applicable our voice can used in concert with the data.

It might not have, but I can assure you it was not by sound biological data. It might be just one man's preference that does have some public opinion backing it. If you think there are not any bowhunters out there supporting or pushing for a earlier close that you are only fooling your self. I am sorry but the first time I ever sent in my recommendations I asked for a Jan. 31 closure and that was when the season was cut. Well I got close to what I wanted but now see the mistake I have made. But like I said I let my own wants and opinions go with out first researching some biological information to back them. :smack: After this I have learned when I sit down to write my recommendations I will do some research and have biological data to back my recommendations. So if I did it back then I am sure alot of other hunters done it as well and are still doing it every year.

[DODGEMAN]

I feel you can have a combination of both biological data, and public opinion, if the public opinion is not detramental to the deer herd it should be considered. And another thing that is most often overlooked is, what is good in this part of the state may not be the best thing for other parts, and vice versa. Alot of things have to go into these decisions, and often times it is not any of the things discussed in this thread. I feel if the deerhunters of the state unite and help collect data, talk with biologist, wildlife officers, along with other members of the game and fish, and commissioners it can only help to get us all together to promote our sport and insure we will have it in the future. Just my 2 cents. Jeff

[CDay]

I agree to a degree with the public opinion. But it should never be the bases for making a decision. First all data should be looked at and biologist make their recommendations for the area or areas they work in. After this is all done and only then public opinion should be looked at to assist in making decisions. The key is sound wildlife management not what hunters want.

Plus that in most cases with public opinion the biggest part will come from those that are upset. The ones that are content and happy with the past season are usually quiet and not heard from until something changes to upset them. So with that public opinion is basis.

[John Stiles]

It wouldn't surprize me in the least, that; there's a lot more to the cuts(15 days) than meets the eye. I could be wrong, but if I let myself morf into the shoes of regular folks[non-hunters] things might take on a different light. Here in L.ower A.rkansas, people tend to get tired of the a. constant flow of pick-ups pulling campers. b. the never ending stuccado of rifles and shotguns going off from dawn til dusk, monday through Sunday. c. the little "smoky cities" called deer camps becoming permanent facilities. I know I have drifted now into a quagmire of opinion, and I wont even begin to explain, other than to say....L.A. is the most rural place you can imagine(mostly small farms and townships) But on the other hand, I'd rather believe, that; the reason we are experiencing the stone-walling[about the days], is that we've journeyed to that place in our sport, and some of the other hunters(of maybe ducks?) like it that way. I'd be more incline to "imagine" that possibly being the case, when I think of a flock of ducks trying to find a resting place, and an Archer or two trailing their game, flush them up and away. My whole deal, is, that sometimes one has to scoot over to make room for others to belly up to the bar, or maybe wind up getting shoved outta the way. Does anyone besides me remember when there was only one little squirrel season in the fall?? These are just "talking points" and don't necessarily reflect my views. P/S, anybody ever been in the perfect place at the perfect time on your own patch of real estate, and all of a sudden BOOOOOOOOOM, squirrel shot flying through your camo pants?? I have, and believe me an old tired disabled Nam vet has a hard time controlling his adrenal gland when that happens. John

[firehog]

Clyde, sorry there for reading into something, its hard sometimes when all you got to go on is what you read. :thumb: I was just understanding you to say we need to go back to the old days when they made decision based on their own assesments and not the input of hunters..let the professionals get back to working with the commisioners setting up seasons and bag limits like it used to be done.

This is the last thing we need to do, because hunter input and hunters actively supporting biologist and commissioners have really help more than its hurt. But I do agree, large public opinion has made some decisions in the past. Can't say thats helped or hurt, but let me say if we took what you are saying and stepped back and did nothing, don't you think thats the worst possible thing to do for any hunting sport, when hunting is being attacked by every peta group, left wing enviromentalist group across the nation, you need hunters to take active participant role in helping its resources. If it weren't for hunters right now that did take active roles in the decisions we wouldn't have deer right now. If it weren't for the conservation efforts and the lobbying for regulations by hunters in the past we wouldn't have the deer herd that we have today.. Clyde I hope you can see that. We as hunters are PUSHING them to use data and not make decision based on personal wants. Its groups like the ABA and the ADHA that says why are you not using biological data, infrared surveys to make better decisions, survey form data information, more check stations pulling jaw bones, measuring weights, testing for diseases, etc. If it weren't for public pressure and opinion, do you think the government would budget any money for the AGFC. I don't think so. Public opinion and pressure can be a good thing or a bad thing, but this is the deal, you have to take the bad along with the good, and understand the good far outways the bad..

I think your saying not base whole decisions on public opinion, and if thats what you saying, your absolutely right, but don't stop helping and step back.

[firehog]

I agree to a degree with the public opinion. But it should never be the bases for making a decision.

I think Clyde what you ment to say is sole bases for making a decision.. I may be wrong though..Just trying to understand.

[John Stiles]

Gentlemen, in my opinion, there's not much arguement about who makes the decisions that effect us all as hunters.....in a democratic venture, it IS the voice of those who make up the group, as well as those outside the group(general public- will always find a way to enter in), and then there is the "power-that-be", in this case, the A.G.F.C. One thing that seems to have slipped everyones minds is that fact: we as hunters have decided to form a commission to police ourselves and set rules to control the taking of game in Arkansas, in order to ensure that pursuit for ourselves and our posterity...which means that from the onset of the "Commission" it is we, who by virtue of our lisences, taxes, fines, and donations; ARE the commission. Therefore, there has to be a "Give and Take" exchange of ideas and rule making, that includes....yes, even members of the non-hunting public. No one entity has "carte blanche" in the decisions that affect us all!....John

[John Stiles]

Lets put it this way, no one entity; should have, all the say-so in matters that effect all hunters! All factors, must be considered, which encompasses all those who will inevitably be involved in one way or the other. The 800 lb. gorilla, in this case will most of the time be: The Hunters.

[firehog]

Your very right there John, our whole system of governing things is set up for the people's input..If we didn't have that we would be ruled by a dictatorship.

[Tony Harris]

In this case the 800 lb gorilla should be the preponderance of evidence (data) not the cries of the public. The reason being evidence does not have emotions, restricted days afield, restricted abilities or side with the crowd because 'pawpaw always done it this way'. Throw in all us little monkeys for good measure and then you may be doing what is best in the long run for hunting as a whole.

One group with a lack of hunting skills who are afraid to get off the roads, others who have come to enjoy feeders and we have a heavy mast crop year therefore they don't see many deer therefore we don't have many deer (and I feed so don't go there) or other who enjoy the deer being run to them (I have run dogs so leave that alone too), the group who thinks bow season is too long and others who think gun season is too long, still others who think it is a sin to shoot a doe but do not think twice about shooting two bucks and then complain that they just don't see as many bucks as they should, etc., etc., etc. Each group has their agenda period. Properly gathered data has no agenda and doesn't care who likes what it has to say, it simply is. But,... even data is subject to enterpretation by biased people at times.

[Keith de Noble]

In this case the 800 lb gorilla should be the preponderance of evidence (data) not the cries of the public. The reason being evidence does not have emotions, restricted days afield, restricted abilities or side with the crowd because 'pawpaw always done it this way'. Throw in all us little monkeys for good measure and then you may be doing what is best in the long run for hunting as a whole.

One group with a lack of hunting skills who are afraid to get off the roads, others who have come to enjoy feeders and we have a heavy mast crop year therefore they don't see many deer therefore we don't have many deer (and I feed so don't go there) or other who enjoy the deer being run to them (I have run dogs so leave that alone too), the group who thinks bow season is too long and others who think gun season is too long, still others who think it is a sin to shoot a doe but do not think twice about shooting two bucks and then complain that they just don't see as many bucks as they should, etc., etc., etc. Each group has their agenda period. Properly gathered data has no agenda and doesn't care who likes what it has to say, it simply is. But,... even data is subject to enterpretation by biased people at times.

Tony,

Nicely said!

Keith

[John Stiles]

Should be is one thing, but in actuality.....its not. I fear that even if we had ABSOLUTELY ALL the data[which we don't] there'd still be divisions among the "general" public, mostly because of the logistics, being as they are; far-flung. It wouldn't matter if Jesus himself came down and laid out the facts, there'd still be those who would question how we act upon those "facts". I suppose nothing can/will be done until all the hunting habitat in the state exceeds the carrying load for hunters, like those bleachers at that soccer game, that caved in, nobody expected it to be that critical an issue, until it happened. Oh well, yawn, we'll just have to see. John

[firehog]

Tony you bring up a point, and that is the different hunters abilities and practices in the way they hunt.

I related this story back last year, about a friend I have that deer hunts, and if you talk to him there is not a deer in sharp county. But when you talk to these folks, like my friend, do you really know how he hunts, and the answer is no. But if you did know how he hunts, you wouldn't take what he said very serious at all.

This guy hunts forty acres, and the weekend of opening day, he cuts his firewood in the woods, he runs his fourwheeler all over the property, he takes his corn and fills his feeders, in the process, dumps a gallon of chainsaw gas between his stand and his feeder, goes back to the cabin, lights his camp fire, and in the process, leaves it lit and goes to bed, and wakes up with the whole hill side burnt, he gets up in the morning, starts his fourwheeler, which has a muffler problem and drives it 50 yards from his stand and sits for one hour doesn't see anything gets off and goes back to camp and cooks breakfast, and waits till a hour before sundown and goes back. I hunted one time with this person, and to sit and talk with him outside of being in camp with him, you would think he was a accomplished seasoned hunter. This guy claims every time I see him, there's no good deer in sharp county, that the AGFC have ruined our hunting with the liberal doe kills.

I suspect everyone on here knows someone like I just mentioned. Would I want this type person lobbying for deer regs? Absolutely not, but I can't do a dang thing about it. And I would hope the commission based decisions weighted more on the data side, along with some input from the public. We all could debate which side (public opinion verses Data) holds more water to them, to hell freezes over on that.

[CDay]

Tony that was what I was trying to get too. The main deciding factors should be based on accurate data. Once this is all completed then look at public opinion and see where it can be used with all of this data in order to provide maximum enjoyment.

Here you also talked about different groups of hunters. My point is most of the hunters in this state that are content with the things the way they are are less likely to be vocal. Look at the majority of us on this board. Alot of us did not start getting vocal until just a couple years ago when the state baglimit went to two bucks and one doe and seasons got cut. Before this most of us were content with the seasons and baglimits as they were. So with that the group that is the most upset is usually the loudest of all drowning out everything else.

[John Stiles]

Fer that matter, it really doesn't make a hill of beans what we talk about between ourselves, you could have a million hunters, and you'd have a million points of view. Whatever happens, I'm still gonna enjoy my hunting experience, because ultimately, I'm responsible for that. And I'm gonna have meat for my family, just like always. And if I don't kill a trophy this year, maybe next year...or the one after. After all, it wouldn't be any fun if every year I killed a trophy buck, anyway, there ain't that much room over my fireplace. Shoot, one year I punched my refrigerator so hard, I broke my paw.....couldn't even draw my bow. You know what, two of the biggest 5 point bucks were killed right square dab in my driveway that year...one in october...one in november. Both young, both fatter'n santy claus. I'm blessed: John

[John Stiles]

Wooops, I neglected to say..."got runned over"....well not entirely over, but deader 'n a door knob!.....John....P/S I aint got no fireplace neither. Hahahahaha

[Tony Harris]

John I think you hit the nail on the head in a round about way. The value of the hunt is what we as individuals make it or percieve it to be. With each person being different the value of their experience has much to do with the season lengths, bag limits, dates afield, harvest success, fellowship with others of like mindedness, methods used, size of the animals harvested, number of animals harvested, number of animals seen, types of animals seen, number of opportunities to harvest animals, level of ability, level of involvement in management, sharing of the 'hunt' with others and passing along tradition. The part we cannot over look is the continuance of the sport and that means a better grasp of what is happening in each area of the state. Basing seasons and limits on the long term needs of the deer for the decades to come is not an easy job when the very habitat they live in changes from year to year, hunting pressure changes from year to year, even the deers own cyclic changes occur from year to year.

I enjoy watching the bucks all year long and sharing the hunt experience with friends and my family. I also enjoy a direct involvement in management more than the harvest. I love to see kids bring a deer in more than me getting one. I will pass more legal bucks each year than some folks get to see all year. I will not even carry a gun in the woods on opening weekend if my wife goes with me so she can do all the shooting. I take pictures all year of the does and their fawns and can tell who is who when I see them at times. For me hunting is not about the kill, that is just putting meat in the freezer. Hunting is the whole experience of a lifetime of relationship with the outdoors. I care about what happens to the sport that is why I will complain at times, why I will offer my two cents worth and why I will push for better use of data in making the descision that will effect not only my future hunting experience but also the future of hunting period. For the late season bowhunter the last two weeks is a vital part of their hunting experience for the year and a cause of concern for the future of their hunting experiences to come.

[Keith de Noble]

Wow Tony - very well said :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

[John Stiles]

L I B, and I thought I was the only one who had names for my little herd. Theres one old doe whose head is long as my forearm....only has three legs....I named her three. Every year I think I'll have to get her outta there, but every year she throws two little bucks. One year, about 3 years ago, I thought she was done cause I kept seein her at the spring where I get my drinkin water, always alone and too late to be still carryin. Well, you guessed it, way up late in the summer, bingo, two of the prettiest Li'L bucks ya ever saw. I'm sure their cycles change almost every year. That's mostly why I'm not worried about takin a buck in Sept., if we ever get our days back. Several years I've been out mendin' fence in sept. and seen bucks with their horns clean or nearly clean. I came face to face with a big ole spike in the brush once and his horns was bright red w/blood.....looked like Satan hisself! Kinda boogered me a little. Later: John