Sheffield Nelson's letter to the ABA

[Keith de Noble]

Posted for your information and appearing as it does on page 20 of the February 2005 issue of The Arkansas Bowhunter.

The Arkansas Bowhunter
P. 0. Box 22832
Little Rock, AR 72221-2832

Dear ABA Members,

I read the letter from Dr. Steve Schoettle, and the editorial comment about that letter, that appeared in the October issue of The Arkansas Bowhunter, and felt it appropriate to respond.

First, and most importantly, I do not have a personal agenda regarding any issue that comes before the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission. I am an avid hunter, and spend all the time I can in the woods, hunting whatever is in season, including bowhunting for deer.

It is my belief that we were hunting deer too long, starting October 1, and ending at the end of February. I personally feel that January 31 would be the best date to end deer season, but worked with my fellow Commissioners, and listened to those of you who contacted me, to arrive at the February 15 date, with no hunting over bait after January 15, and do not plan to pursue this further. As most of you know, a majority of states end their deer seasons on or before January 31, so that would have been a reasonable position for us to take.

Several problems are encountered as you extend the season. Food sources are generally depleted, and deer will come running to corn, soybeans or just about any other food made available to them, and issues regarding fair chase and sportsmanship are created. Additionally, many bucks have dropped their antlers, increasing the chances of quality bucks being shot by mistake. Lastly, bucks are worn out after fighting through rut, they have lost weight and strength during the process, they are actively seeking food, and they have become less cautious due to most hunters being out of the woods, with the cumulative effect being that they are more susceptible to being killed by a hunter.

I would remind you that there are seven Commissioners, and a majority must favor a regulation before it becomes effective. No Commissioner has any more power or authority than another.

I’ve been accused of having a personal agenda because of my efforts on duck and turkey regulations, so I probably should not be surprised at this most recent accusation. I would just ask that you consider the points I have made in this letter to you., and I hope that you will arrive at the conclusion that I am simply doing what I truly believe is in the best interests of both our fish and wildlife resources and the people of Arkansas.

Sincerely,


Sheffield Nelson

ESN/rs

[DODGEMAN]

At least he was honest and said it was his "belief" that the season was too long. Now if he will be honest enough to look at the data, maybe we can change his mind?

[beltcutter]

"...issues of fair chase and sportsmanship....."

Hold the fort down, Jim Bob!

If it is an issue of fair chase and sportsmanship with Mr. Nelson then he should be standing up and screaming that ALL BAITING ANYTIME should be banned. If a deer is coming to corn and you shoot it, then what difference does it make what time of year it is! They yard up in food plots as well, but I guess that's ethical. You hunt an animal over a food source (acorns, honeysuckle, soybeans, cornfield, oat patch, rice, flooded pin oak flat, etc.) and you kill it, then you have taken advantage of that animal's survival instincts, namely the need to eat. If you have a problem with hunting game over a feeder then you should have a problem with hunting game over ANY food source.

Poor ducks.....what about them? Daddgummit, what do you know, the combine broke down right in front of the duck blind, but there is a lot of money being spent in that blind, so we won't touch that one............will we Mr. Nelson?

[deerhunter]

Several problems are encountered as you extend the season. Food sources are generally depleted, and deer will come running to corn, soybeans or just about any other food made available to them, and issues regarding fair chase and sportsmanship are created. Additionally, many bucks have dropped their antlers, increasing the chances of quality bucks being shot by mistake. Lastly, bucks are worn out after fighting through rut, they have lost weight and strength during the process, they are actively seeking food, and they have become less cautious due to most hunters being out of the woods, with the cumulative effect being that they are more susceptible to being killed by a hunter.[/b]



Sincerely,


Sheffield Nelson

ESN/rs

[/size]

I do have a problem with the statement that bucks are more susceptible to being killed by a hunter due to them actively seeking food.......What about hunting during the rut when they are actively seeking every doe in the woods? There is nothing that draws bucks out in daylight hours more than the urge to mate. Maybe we should quit hunting during the rut and what about when that white oak acorn tree that is dropping all that deer candy to the forest floor in October and the deer are drawn to that area like a magnet,I guess that eliminates hunting in October as well. If we keep this up I guess we should eliminate deer season all together.

What about the statement that deer are less catious due to the lack of hunter pressure.........Thats what makes being out there this time of year so enjoyable...the lack of pressure...but to think this gives a hunter with archery equipment the upper hand is absurd at best.

first of all,we as hunters still have the same amount of human odor as we did back in November and the deer still have the same since of smell.

next is that the deer still have that same great eye sight as they had in November.

lastly we are still venturing into their living room where they still have a distinct advantage.

I just dont think it adds up.

Now about bucks being shot by mistake due to the loss of thier antlers,truth is that only around 1% of the annual deer harvest occurs during this period of the season and most hunters who are still out there are die hard hunters and will not take a buck that has shed his antlers plus most hunters are hunting from a tree stand from where the vantage point is conducive to determining a buck that has shed his antlers from a doe.

I just think to end the season two weeks early is going against any sound data that has been gathered and to end baiting even earlier is doing the same.

These are just my opinions and I do feel as though Mr.Nelson is doing what he thinks is right for the deer herd but I dont think he or anyone else should base thier decisions solely on personal beliefs.

[Keith de Noble]

Very well said Deerhunter. Personal beliefs are NEVER the basis for a good decision if it does not take into consideration good scientific data and professional input.

[CP]

""and do not plan to pursue this further"

This part of Mr. Nelson's statement is by far the most troublesome. Data, reasoning, discussion, or other information will fall on the deaf ears of self admiration.

....what a shame it is for the hunters of Arkansas.

[Sister]

The most compelling argument I have heard is the fact that a big percentage of the bucks have lost their antlers before February and thus the harvest of a trophy buck without antlers is very possible.

And, from the posts I have read concerning this issue it appears the only position that would meet with approval would be a longer season.

JMO :thumb:

[fisherman]

First, and most importantly, I do not have a personal agenda regarding any issue that comes before the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission.

It is my belief that we were hunting deer too long, starting October 1, and ending at the end of February. I personally feel that January 31 would be the best date to end deer season, but worked with my fellow Commissioners, and listened to those of you who contacted me, to arrive at the February 15 date, with no hunting over bait after January 15, and do not plan to pursue this further. As most of you know, a majority of states end their deer seasons on or before January 31, so that would have been a reasonable position for us to take.


He needs to read what he is saying, when you say It is my belief that is Personal. No one has put out any data that hunting till Feb. 28 and hunting over bait is hurting the deer, Heck they say that in the 1970's the deer poplation was around 100,000 and in 2000 it was around 1,000,000 and we been bow hunting till the end of Feb. and over bait the hole time. We really seem to have stunted the poplation in this time frame.

[Earnhardt fan #1]

One word says what has been taken from us all.......OPPORTUNITY and thats something that they seem to forget what is at stake.

[bwhntr]

originally posted by Commissioner Nelson.......

Several problems are encountered as you extend the season. Food sources are generally depleted, and deer will come running to corn, soybeans or just about any other food made available to them, and issues regarding fair chase and sportsmanship are created


yeah,but it's alright to stick a dog on a deers' a :censored:s ,and run it until its' tongue hangs to the ground..... not :cool:..that's my opinion and does not necessarily reflect the opinion of the moderators of this board......

[Hill Farm Hunter]

If the data/facts backed up his statements I would support him 100%. They don't and I can't though. :frown:

[Earnhardt fan #1]

Several problems are encountered as you extend the season. Food sources are generally depleted, and deer will come running to corn, soybeans or just about any other food made available to them, and issues regarding fair chase and sportsmanship are created. Additionally, many bucks have dropped their antlers, increasing the chances of quality bucks being shot by mistake. Lastly, bucks are worn out after fighting through rut, they have lost weight and strength during the process, they are actively seeking food, and they have become less cautious due to most hunters being out of the woods, with the cumulative effect being that they are more susceptible to being killed by a hunter.

#1 Food sources are generally depleted, and deer will come running to corn, soybeans or just about any other food made available to them, and issues regarding fair chase and sportsmanship are created.

As a few of you know I hunt Sylamore almost exclusive That is where food plots are said to have organated here in Arkansas. Now why are we not planting them any longer? They are being planted but not as they should or were in the past.If there is a way (I know there is )see to it they are in fact planted with something of nutritional value Our deer herd deserves that at least don't you think? That is an issue that needs resolved immediately I feel.
Here is a quote from the AGFC's web page about Sylamore....
Food plots were planted in both pens with greater success (increased carrying capacity) in the pen with poor quality timber. What was discovered was the carrying capacity could be increased with the food plots and the quality was also improved. The Commission saw the benefit of planting food plots in timber stands, especially during years of bad mast crops. You can say "food plots started in Arkansas on Sylamore WMA."

#2 Additionally, many bucks have dropped their antlers, increasing the chances of quality bucks being shot by mistake.

An archer has deer as close as the bottom of his/her standand as far away (shooting ethicaly) as thirthy to thirty-five yards. So it is their decesion and theirs alone as of now ;unless you change it ;to take that animal regardlessof it being a buck that has lost its antlers or a doe.Nowing it is in fact a buck or doe.

#3 Lastly, bucks are worn out after fighting through rut, they have lost weight and strength during the process, they are actively seeking food, and they have become less cautious due to most hunters being out of the woods, with the cumulative effect being that they are more susceptible to being killed by a hunter.

Isn't that the MAIN reason gun deer season is during the rut? to take a buck during its most active and most susceptable period?
Food plots were planted in both pens with greater success (increased carrying capacity) in the pen with poor quality timber. What was discovered was the carrying capacity could be increased with the food plots and the quality was also improved. The Commission saw the benefit of planting food plots in timber stands, especially during years of bad mast crops. You can say "food plots started in Arkansas on Sylamore WMA."


In MY opinion and It may not have any baring on your descisions but if you take care of Mr Nelson's #1 issue you take care of the other known reasons for his wanting these seasons cut. Your own data contridicts what each of you are telling us the hunters of this state.

[F B]

Im glad he responded but Im still callin' bs.

If this was the early 80's and he was making those arguments it would be one thing.

But we had a 5 month bow season for over 20 years and our deer herd did just fine.

Why did it all of a sudden become a problem two years ago?

[bwhntr]

It is my belief Commissioners Nelson'......


I would remind you that there are seven Commissioners, and a majority must favor a regulation before it becomes effective. No Commissioner has any more power or authority than another. I’ve been accused of having a personal agenda because of my efforts on duck and turkey regulations, so I probably should not be surprised at this most recent accusation. I would just ask that you consider the points I have made in this letter to you., and I hope that you will arrive at the conclusion that I am simply doing what I truly believe is in the best interests of both our fish and wildlife resources and the people of Arkansas.

Who's he trying to kid about this.Notice that it is HIS BELIEF.....and also notice just how many times he uses the word I in his letter...



walks like a duck,quacks like a duck, it's obvious,that it is a duck.....

[Sister]

He is right about one thing, there are 7 commissioners and it does take a majority to make changes. So.......possibly he is the only one who has the guts to try and give the bowhunters an explanation of why he voted the way he did. It would be interesting to know how the vote came out....was it 4 to 3, 5 to 2, 6 to 1?

As far as it being someone's personal belief instead of scientific data, who are we kidding? Scientific data is only as good as the beliefs of the scientist doing the analyzing. There are judgement calls that are made in all evaluations of data. That is why we have changes made in determinations sometimes....like in the medical field. We all bought into the eggs are bad for you, guess what...they aren't, salt was terrible for you, guess what....it isn't, Fat makes you fat, guess what....it doesn't (as a matter of fact since your brain needs fat to develop, function and remain healthy, there is a growing number of people who believe dementia and Alzheimers are a direct result of the low fat craze)

Point being scientific data, personal beliefs, published findings, whatever you are using.....it's not infallable, so sometimes it is just a gut feeling that this is the right thing for you to do. Apparently the majority of the commissioners feel moving the end of the bowhunting season back to February 15 is the right thing to do.

This is just my thoughts on why and wherefore....and doesn't amount to anymore or less than your thoughts....just some musing on my part. :thumb:

[BigHorn]

Could we invite Mr. Nelson on here to discuss some of his beliefs? :confused:

[Keith de Noble]

Sister,

At the AGF Commission meeting in 2004 when the 2004-05 seasons were set, there was an expected "showdown" on the bowhunting season length.

In many observer's opinion, there were 3 commissioners for shortening season, and 3 for keeping it the same (February 15 closing). That would have created a tie vote and the chairman would have voted to break the deadlock. It was anticipated by many, and perhaps 1, if not all 3 commissioners, for shortening season, that then chairman Lester Sitzes would vote against the proposal to further shorten the season.

Nelson then proposed a "compromise" of keeping season open to February 15, but with no baiting after January 15. This appeared to be acceptable to the 6 commissioners voting and it passed unanimously.

Many of us working on this issue have been told it is better for the commission to work together and vote together, rather than appear divided.

There was never any proposal last year to re-extend the season to the end of February.

True, scientific data can be slanted toward a desired outcome. However, facts, obtained through good statistical methods are a far more compelling argument than any one person's beliefs, whether they be based on personal observation, or perceived imagination.

[bwhntr]

The question keeps being asked,and has been asked even by me, Where is the data to show that shortening the season is beneficial to our deer herd? Show me the data, and I will be glad to accept the shortening of the archery season, it is all based on personal opinion of (some and/or all) of our commissioners, and it does not matter who voted for the season shortening, in this case. The majority rules, and that is and will always be the democratic way. Maybe all of the commissioners voted for this,(this is unknown to me), still it was based on personal opinions, and not data.Maybe all of our commisioners (who are appointed by the Governor),if my aging memory serves me correctly, need to have degrees in Biology, Zoology,etc. Doesn't matter, there is no data to analyze anyway. Just give us back the days taken away. :boohoo:

[Sister]

Can anyone tell me why it is necessary to have a gun season, a muzzleloader season, a bow season? Since it is personal preference what someone hunts deer with, why should there be a separate season for each? Why not have a deer season that begins in November and runs through January for any method of hunting the hunter wants to use?

Then if too many deer are taken, shorten the season or change the limit. By doing this everything could be decided by good solid statistics and would be no need to have vague reasons for the decisions made by the commissioners.

Seems to me this would unify the deerhunters and satisfy more hunters. :thumb:

[xring]

Sister, let me try to explain, the seasons set up were "geared" towards the difficulity level. Modern Gun for instance is accepted by most as the weapon of choice for deerhunting, it has greater range than the archery gear, the muzzleloader has less range than the "most modern" cartridge loading rifles, and the Bows and arrows of today have the least usable effective range of all weapons allowed for deer hunting. Thus the Bowhunters have the longest uninterupted season, 4 1/2 months per year as of right now, The Muzzle loaders have a short season before the modern gun hunters are allowed to take to the woods and generally a second short season late in the year.
You cannot envision the problems that a combination of all weapons in the woods at the same time, a bowhunter could be waiting on one more step from a big buck only to have a rifle or muzzleloader hunter kill it from 150-200 yards away. Besides if they combined them all together, almost everyone would opt for the more efficient magnum rifle with huge scopes and bow manufacturers
would go belly up, so a combining of all groups is not a workable solution..xring

[Keith de Noble]

Bowhunters may use their bow during muzzleloader and modern gun seasons, and muzzleloaders may use their smokepoles during modern gun season most of the time. There can be a few specific exceptions for permit hunts on WMA's or special situations.

[Sister]

So, if I understand it right, the bowhunters have 4 1/2 months, but the modern gun and the muzzleloaders have, what, 3 months? Is that right?

Seasons are geared toward the difficulty level? Well, pardon me for being dumb, again, but that is the most ridiculous reasoning I ever heard of. Who makes it difficult? Isn't that a choice the hunter makes? Why should one group get more time in the woods than another when it is by their own choice the weapon they use?

I guess I have more to learn because I am just not understanding why seasons would be set based on the weapon a hunter chooses to use. :confused:

[F B]

Could we invite Mr. Nelson on here to discuss some of his beliefs?

He knows about the site and has been invited to participate but so far has chosen not to.

We have 4 Commissioners that are registered, or I guess I should say that are registered under their real name.

Mike Freeze, John Benjamin, Sonny Varnell, and Forrest Wood (Mr. Wood has never posted)

If the others visit or post they do it under nicknames.

[rickie self]

Bet he think's you don't want to hear his beliefs ,or personal opionion's, after reading posts. On here is not data or scientific,. as everyone seems to be clamoring for until it does'nt help support their cause. Such as baiting..

[fisherman]

Sister that is the problem people like you that don't know any thing about hunting and just want to take care of the cute little animals are trying to make the rules on hunting :smack:

[F B]

Bet he think's you don't want to hear his beliefs ,or personal opionion's, after reading posts. On here is not data or scientific,. as everyone seems to be clamoring for until it does'nt help support their cause. Such as baiting..

I think its because he's basing the cuts on his personal beliefs and it aint a stretch to say that the large majority of hunters dont agree with his positions.

Most people dont seem to be understanding that a 5 month bow season and 5 months of hunting over bait was not an experiment.

They had been around for a long time and we still had plenty of deer.

7 Commissioners in the 80's said it would be OK and I have no idea how many have come and gone since then that thought it was OK too but 7 of em in 2002 decided it was a problem based on their own personal beliefs of whats ethical, etc. so they made the changes and cuts.

Even if you dont bowhunt it oughta bother you at least a little bit that something that had been around that long and not hurt the deer herd could be cut so easily.

[fisherman]

Good post FB very well said.

[Sister]

Sister that is the problem people like you that don't know any thing about hunting and just want to take care of the cute little animals are trying to make the rules on hunting :smack:

Oops.....let's get real here....my observations have nothing to do with taking care of the cute little animals...nor trying to make the rules on hunting....they have everything to do with being reasonable.

I have read these posts and tried to understand why the amount of animosity over two weeks of late season hunting... 4 1/2 months, 6 weeks more than the other hunters.....

I freely admit I just don't get it, kinda sounds like a bunch of pre-schoolers who don't have a really good reason to oppose something other than the fact "it's always been done that way". It's like the child who continually says, Oh, please Mommy, please, why not? why can't I? why not? until the parent gives in to get the kid to finally shut up.

Now if you only had, say, four weeks and the season was reduced to three then I could see where it could be a real problem for those who could not schedule their vacations during the right time frame to take advantage of those three weeks, but with 4 1/2 months I don't think that should be a problem. :confused:

Sorry Guys, I have really tried to understand it....just haven't got there yet.
But then as you know, I'm just an old woman. :smack:

[DODGEMAN]

Let me give this a try. Sister we feel since they have started taking things away they may not stop, that is why we are so upset.

[F B]

Sorry you dont get it cause I cant explain my position any better than I have.

But its ALOT more than a bunch of pre-schoolers who don't have a really good reason to oppose something other than the fact "it's always been done that way"

If you dont understand why gun seasons are always shorter than bow seasons, I cant explain that one to you either.

[Sister]

Let me give this a try. Sister we feel since they have started taking things away they may not stop, that is why we are so upset.

Okay, hoorah for Dodgeman!! Now this is an explanation I can understand. I had begun to think no one would ever say it. I can understand the fear of losing more and more, just a little at a time until you have nothing left.

That is the thing that needs to be communicated to the commissioners instead of talking about their lack of data and statistics. Beating them up about the lack of data will only alienate them, not a good thing when they hold the keys to your hunting season. :smack:

[DODGEMAN]

Thank you I will be here all night.

[Sister]

Oops...sorry about that.

don't you ever sleep?

[Hoyt USA]

Sister, I know that 2 weeks off of a 5 month season does not sound like a big deal. But this could be just the tip of the iceburg the next loss could be even bigger. That is how nations transform from democracies to a dictaorships one small freedom at a time.

[Sister]

Have you ever heard the old saying, "Pick your battles" and the one about only having so many bullets in your gun, fire sparingly.

The population control issue is enough to assure the continuing deer hunting seasons, however, that does not necessarily ensure the future of a particular method of hunting. It couldn't hurt to have the ones who make the rules and regulations in your corner. Fighting them might not be the best way to reach your goal.

Just musing from an old woman. :thumb:

[F B]

We are picking our battles.

We want the two weeks added back to bow season and we want the baiting restrictions ended.

As for having the ones who make the rules in our corner, I think most of em are most of the time.

But I dont count Nelson as one of em.

At least not for the average hunter who might want to spend a little time sittin' in a deer stand the last two weeks in Febaruary.

He certainly has a right to his opinions but the problem is that he has the power to force his personal views of ethics, etc. on the rest of us.

[Sister]

We are picking our battles.

As for having the ones who make the rules in our corner, I think most of em are most of the time.

I have no doubt you are right, except, on this issue.

[bwhntr]

lack of data and statistics


data...facts or figures from which conclusions can be inferred(the process by which such a conclusion is reached; the process of thought by which one moves from evidence to proof)



statistics....facts or data of a numerical kind,assembled,classified, and tabulated so as to present significant information about a given subject ,which is in this case the taking away of the last 2 weeks of archery season.

when those in position(with the power do to so) start making decisions without data and statistics to back up their decisions, then it can only be their personal opinion by which the conclusion to drop the last 2 weeks of archery season was made....

[Hoyt USA]

"Pick your battles"

I have my own favorite tired cliche, you don't have a dog in this fight.

[Keith de Noble]

So, if I understand it right, the bowhunters have 4 1/2 months, but the modern gun and the muzzleloaders have, what, 3 months? Is that right?

Seasons are geared toward the difficulty level? Well, pardon me for being dumb, again, but that is the most ridiculous reasoning I ever heard of. Who makes it difficult? Isn't that a choice the hunter makes? Why should one group get more time in the woods than another when it is by their own choice the weapon they use?

I guess I have more to learn because I am just not understanding why seasons would be set based on the weapon a hunter chooses to use. :confused:


True, you do have MUCH more to learn. Maintain an open mind on this site and you will learn a great deal.

[Sister]

I am working on that. I am learning a lot. That should be a two way street. Sometimes what you learn after you "know it all" is the best education you can get.

I do however, discount any suggestion that because I don't have a "dog in the fight" renders me without the competence to look at all the posts and information and reach reasonable conclusions based on what I have read.

[Keith de Noble]

I am working on that. I am learning a lot. That should be a two way street. Sometimes what you learn after you "know it all" is the best education you can get.

I do however, discount any suggestion that because I don't have a "dog in the fight" renders me without the competence to look at all the posts and information and reach reasonable conclusions based on what I have read.

My apologies Sister, I never intended to come across as a "know it all". I have been a student of archery, hunting, fishing, and the outdoors in general for over 40 years. My studies in those areas are a daily activity.

To reach reasonable conclusions regarding these issues, I suggest you broaden your input to include many more souces than just this site.

[Sister]

My apologies to you KDN, that remark wasn't aimed at you personally. That was my feeble attempt to say it is good to keep an open mind whether you are just learning about something or have been involved in it for years. We are never too old and smart to learn unless we choose to be.

[BigHorn]

Now if we can just get Mr. Nelson to start being open minded.

[rickie self]

Being the smaller segment of the hunting population is the big problem. All sides I think realizes that it impacts very little the resources involved. Most gun hunters I know, could care less about late archery. If all hunters wants something, all or most commissioners would jump on board. Data and facts does'nt sway all decisions it appears. We need support of non archery hunters to win this . In my opionion , the only way it will happen..

[thumper]

My two cents worth.......obviously Mr Nelson has never bowhunted in February. I can honestly say that it is much easier to bag a deer in Oct and Nov than it is in February. I am a bowhunter but have never cared much for the late season: it's colder, there is much less cover, lots of water in most areas to wade through and the deer are back in large herds. They are just harder to get close enough to shoot.

I'd like to see Mr. Nelson try to draw on deer in bow range with 30-60 sets of eyes and 15-30 noses out there sniffing him out. Anyone that would make a statement saying that it is easier in February has obviously never tried it!

[quackmaster]

I think that you guys continue to get all riled up over this because he's forcing HIS opininion on you and there are 20 or 30 or however many of you that aren't getting your way and you have statistics to back up this and that and you want days back because by GOD I have the right to hunt deer in february! Whatever. Well there are a few of us that agree it is not a bad idea to cut it short, I say cut it back to January and give them a break. Can you not find something else to shoot in february? Go shoot a rabbit. No I don't know Sheffield or any other commisioner but of course this is my opinion and no data that you produce or talk about is going to change my mind. A deer already has to spend a third of the year dodging folks, give them a freaking break and quit always thinking about what you want is the right thing. Stubborn bunch ya'll are.

Why not hunt them in August and september? Some states do that? Suprised ya'll haven't pushed for that.

[Hill Farm Hunter]

Why not hunt them in August and september? Some states do that? Suprised ya'll haven't pushed for that.
Too dang hot and the ticks and skeeters are too bad.

[quackmaster]

Too dang hot and the ticks and skeeters are too bad.

thats my point.

Its not "comfortable" to hunt then, so you give yourself a break. How about the deer?

[Hill Farm Hunter]

thats my point.

Its not "comfortable" to hunt then, so you give yourself a break. How about the deer?

Guess they have to deal with the ticks and skeeters, they live there. :biggrin:

[Luv2Hunt]

Sister, from your many posts that I've read on many different threads, you appear to be pretty much a tournament shooter. Do you hunt? If so, I can't see why you would take a stand against the views of the ABA and the majority of your fellow bowhunters. If you don't, why are you participating in this conversation? Just curious.

[F B]

quackmaster-Using your logic, why not just end all deer hunting after November, then they could REALLY have a break.

We could bowhunt in October then have the gun and muzzleloader seasons in November and then shut it down till the next year. :rolleyes:

[Sister]

Sister, from your many posts that I've read on many different threads, you appear to be pretty much a tournament shooter. Do you hunt? If so, I can't see why you would take a stand against the views of the ABA and the majority of your fellow bowhunters. If you don't, why are you participating in this conversation? Just curious.

Thank you for asking Luv2Hunt. Easiest question I was ever asked.

ANSWER: Because no one told me I couldn't have an objective opinion nor that I could not participate in a conversation unless I was a member of ABA and supported all those who took part in the conversation. :frown:

Kinda like voting for someone running for office, I've never held that office but I sure do have an opinion on who I want in it and what I want them to do while they are in it!! :wink:

And, who said I was taking a stand against the ABA and the majority of fellow bowhunters??? Whoever it was didn't know what they were talking about. Do you honestly believe that everyone who is for a shorter season is against the ABA and fellow bowhunters? What makes you think all bowhunters support a longer season?

But to be completely honest with you all about the season, I haven't made up my mind as yet whether I'm for a shorter season or not. (not that my opinion matters as Luv2Hunt was so gracious as to point out) I will confess that I find it hard to be sympathetic to a group who has such a long season to enjoy hunting and yet attack the commissioners personally over a reduction of just two weeks.

Dodgeman & one other poster made more sense to me than anyone when he explained the fear of this being just the first of many reductions in the season, having the season chipped away a little at a time, tip of the iceberg, etc. I can understand that position.

Hope that answers your questions....always happy to add my $0.02. :thumb:

[PUDDLE]

What kind of twist would this thread if duck season would have been cut to 45 days?

luv2hunt - I wonder? Do you?

[Earnhardt fan #1]

Okay deerhunters complained a few years back they weren't seein deer so the commission voted to cut the seasons.

Now ......

for two mayb going on three every duck hunter around is whinning about NOT seeing ducks. Why not cutem back from sixty days to fifty days Because its a MONEY MAKER!!! no one will go for will they? They (duck hunters) would be doin gthe same thing .Right?

[Roy2]

Sister,
someone should have told you not to buck up against the bowhunters on this site. They throw more of a fit over a few days of a season than the dog runners that are going to loose their whole season. Oh and by the way, MY GUN SEASON is only 3 WEEKS not 3 months.

[Earnhardt fan #1]

I'm for every one getting their season back but why the picking on the bow hunters as I stated earlier take ten days off the duck season and see who cries FOWL

[fisherman]

They talked about cutting duck season a few years ago and the guides got in a uproar, said it would put them out of business if they cut the season, said they would go broke :smack:

[Earnhardt fan #1]

Broke???????? I'm broke Deer hunters broke but a duck guide who does it 60 days for $150 and more a gun for a half day hunt then says I 'll go broke.I'd kill to just work 60 days

[dspeakes]

I hunt with bow, muzzleloader, and gun. I hunt ducks, deer, squirrels, doves, and rabbits. I don't want to see any seasons cut just for the sake of cutting. It there are real reasons for the cut, then I will support them but in this case there are no reasons for the cut other than someone's personal opinions.

We, as hunters, should all support each other and always back each other when a legal, ethical means of hunting is taken away for no reason. I don't care if it is deer season, duck season, or rabbit season. There is no excuse to reduce season lengths just because they want to. I agree with Dodgeman that this could just be the first of many cuts. If the AGFC starts cutting and banning, where does it stop??

[Earnhardt fan #1]

I hunt with bow, muzzleloader, and gun. I hunt ducks, deer, squirrels, doves, and rabbits. I don't want to see any seasons cut just for the sake of cutting. It there are real reasons for the cut, then I will support them but in this case there are no reasons for the cut other than someone's personal opinions.

We, as hunters, should all support each other and always back each other when a legal, ethical means of hunting is taken away for no reason. I don't care if it is deer season, duck season, or rabbit season. There is no excuse to reduce season lengths just because they want to. I agree with Dodgeman that this could just be the first of many cuts. If the AGFC starts cutting and banning, where does it stop??


that's what I'm talkin about :thumb: :thumb:

[Keith de Noble]

OK - Here I go - been too quiet for too long on this issue. Also, this is my personal opinion and it may be no more right than wrong to some of you - but here goes.

I'm asking everyone to please consider not focusing on any one commissioner. Yes, Nelson wrote the letter and I posted it so anyone who wanted to read it had the opportunity. Any of you who are ABA members, or have access to The Arkansas Bowhunter could have posted it. Anyone who accesses the ABA website can read Nelson's letter. The ABA prints all letters written to the organization.

I disagree with virtually everything Nelson said in his letter. However, I respect him for having the courage to put it in writing, and to stand by and fight for what he believes. In that respect he is much like most of us bowhunters - willing to stand up and fight for what we believe.

It has been said, by many of you and verified by data and comments from AGF staff, that bowhunting has little impact on the herd, and is extremely minimal in the month of February. Nelson's points were apparently made upon personal obersvations, personal research, and his beliefs. Still, it took the entire commission to vote last year to leave bowhunting season ending on February 15, and the prohibition of feeding after January 15. This was not a singular decision, it was a decision by the full commission, nor was it a popular one among bowhunters.

But, that's history. Us bowhunters disagree with the action, we disagree with the reason behind the decision, and the manner in which it came about. We can be grateful that season was not further shortened as had been originally proposed. Please remember, much of the early pressure to shorten season came from "certain individuals" who voiced their displeasure at several, if not all, of the 2004 public hearings. Also, there were various and numerous rumors going around about other factors - at this point, they are rumors, not fact, and I don't believe they should be discussed openly.

What's done is done. Now, it is time for us to train our sights on how to resolve the issue. I don't believe a continuation of personal attacks is going to accomplish much.

What we must do is work closely with AGF staff to obtain as much accurate data now and well into the future. We, as bowhunters, and all sportsmen, must work together to assist in any way possible to obtain valid data. If such data still shows no valid reason for shortening season, then we must work together as sportsmen, and work diligently to compel the commissioners to do the right thing and restore bowhunting season to the end of February. We must compel them to eliminate personal beliefs and feelings from the decision process.

Commissioners are in the position of trying to blend biological with sociological considerations. Not always an enviable or easy task. However, if the AGF Mission Statement is taken literally, as it should be, then there should never be a reduction of opportunity without appropriate verifiable data to support such a decision.

Another consideration, as eluded to by Dodge, and others, is the dangerous precedent that is established by making decisions not based on facts. Principally, if the commission lends more weight to the sociological factors they may well fall prey to the increasing pressure of the anti's. We hunters are a minority that are underfunded and understrength. The commissioners must be compelled to realize their current actions may be used to the detriment of all far into the future. It's too easy to focus on the now, and ignore the horrendous ramifications of the future.

I, like many of you, will support a decision to maintain a shortened season, or additional shortening of season, but only if verifiable data supports such action; and then it must be applied to all users of the resource, without any exception.

What's done is done, what we do next will determine the future. Let's all work together.

[PUDDLE]

Very well said!!:thumb: :thumb:

[Bowcrazy]

Sister-If I can I would like to give you another opinion on the reason for the stance against the comm on the last 2 weeks of Feb.Most of us on here are not against the comm just their reason for the cut.I mean if the deer need a break why not cut the season when there are more hunters in the woods.Very few hunt in Feb.But for those that do we love it.Also deerhunters are not the only ones in the woods,you still have rabbit,sguirrel them deer dont know the difference.Also with something like 316 deer being killed statwide in Feb just dont show the deer being overhunted at this time of year.
Quackmaster I would love to have the 2 weeks put back at the last of Sept.Lets see bucks only,bachelor groups,deer on a regular movement pattern.Give it to me.Please.

[Sister]

Thank you for giving me another opinion. Makes sense that those who love the last two weeks of Feb. don't want to lose it.

Of all the info I have read, both on this board and others, as well as some of the books and magazines on the hunting subject, I still think the biggest reason for getting hunters out of the woods in February is because without antlers it is likely that hunters will take trophy bucks without their headgear.
Doing that wont do anything for promoting Arkansas bucks, will it?

Could be wrong about that, but only thing that makes it seem undesirable to me. Of course if the time ever comes when Arkansas has loads of trophy bucks roaming the woods and all hunters can virtually take big trophies every time they take a buck, then it wouldn't be as important, would it?

It would be paradise if you had a choice between the barb wire buck and a little 3 point, huh?

[Keith de Noble]

To all on this thread. Some more of my personal opinion.

There was much discussion, particularly among the commissioners last year, about bucks who have lost their antlers being killed in late season.

I agree to a point. It is possible and it does happen. However, AGF can help reduce this possibility, while still maintaining maximum opportunity, by further educating the bowhunting public. Because bowhunters need deer to be close-in to make a high probability shot, there should only be rare circumstances where a buck that has lost his antlers would end up being shot. An educated bowhunter should normally be able to tell the difference.

Again, the number of probable kills is very low. Probably a significantly lower than the number of deer killed in deer/vehicle collisions, and the number killed by poachers. In both of these cases the deer will be dead or severely injured, regardless of sex or presence of antlers.

So, once again, what may seem to be a point for a shortened bowhunting season, is not a valid consideration.

Keith de Noble

[Earnhardt fan #1]

Most guys are out of the woods by the end of the Christmas hunt but some say the archery people are running our deer to death. I call that with this ... A guy gets off work early one afternoon and gets his/her dogs to go squirrel or rabbit hunting. He takes no precautions as to scent. In other words he smalls of human not taking time to rid himself of that scent. Where as the archery hunter is trying to eliminate his human scent at almost all costs. If this is true then why leave the other seasons open for business?

[Remington]

ok now we are going from trying to get 2 months back to asking why squirrel hunters and rabbit hunters get to hunt???? Yeah thats the ticket lets down or expose another hunting season or method and look at taking them away too....

[Keith de Noble]

Bowhunters are not running the deer to death. I worry about anyone who thinks that. They probably no little to nothing about bowhunting. Even squirrel and rabbit hunters are not running dear to death.

I think E-fan has raised a good point in showing that if running deer to death were a valid point - which it isn't - then we would have already had a serious problem. I'm not only confident, but hopeful, our commissioners realize that this is not the case, so I don't feel any other season is threatened.

There is no greater pressure on deer than during the peak of the modern gun season, particularly in areas where dogs may be used. Again, the attempt and making a point of "running deer to death" is not valid.

[Sister]

To all on this thread. Some more of my personal opinion.

There was much discussion, particularly among the commissioners last year, about bucks who have lost their antlers being killed in late season.

I agree to a point. It is possible and it does happen.

Again, the number of probable kills is very low. Probably a significantly lower than the number of deer killed in deer/vehicle collisions, and the number killed by poachers. In both of these cases the deer will be dead or severely injured, regardless of sex or presence of antlers.

Keith de Noble

Just a thought......maybe it has nothing to do with the number of deer that will be taken by bowhunters during February, but the fact that the number taken added to the number killed in vehicle collisions and the number killed by poachers and the number killed by hunters who hunt outside season and the number taken without antlers all combined adds up to more risk to the deer population than the commission is comfortable with.

May be a crazy idea, but I would think once you reach a certain harvest number any additional kills would be undesireable period.

[Bodcau boy]

I am no bowhunter but it would seem to me that if a person with even reasonable eyesight gets close enough to a deer to shoot it with a bow that they ought to be able to tell if or not the deer is a mature buck even if his horns had fell off. My eyes are not much to brag about but for sure I know that I can tell even a 2 1/2 year old buck from a doe at under 50 yards and hopefully a bowhunter will not be shooting a deer at over 25 yards. I think this line of reasoning is way off as I find it the weakest argument that has been presented to date on this debate and I just can't believe anyone would come up with this BS if indeed they have ever done much deer hunting in an up close fashion. And I don't care when they close the season.

[rickie self]

Only problem with late season that I have not eliminated in my thinking is about other states stopping early.all other reasons discussed are in my opionion , thought up excuses that don't pan out to really matter.I think non bow hunter's mindset is that we have to much time to bowhunt.Cut that down. don't see it as management tool , don't help anything, guess it's a superfical move to give look of action . How is this helping hunting down road? Can Game and fish show us later how this action helped the hunters and the game? cutting something that won't change equation due not wanting to offend larger segment of hunter's is not good management. And in my opionion not responsible leadership..

[Keith de Noble]

Just a thought......maybe it has nothing to do with the number of deer that will be taken by bowhunters during February, but the fact that the number taken added to the number killed in vehicle collisions and the number killed by poachers and the number killed by hunters who hunt outside season and the number taken without antlers all combined adds up to more risk to the deer population than the commission is comfortable with.

May be a crazy idea, but I would think once you reach a certain harvest number any additional kills would be undesireable period.


Unless something has drastically changed, AGF has no definitive numbers for deer killed in vehicle/deer collisions (something that has been pointed out on this site before), and they have no accurate numbers for poaching kills. Also, AGF doesn't have harvest numbers until well after season. I have never seen any "benchmark" harvest number. Again, this is not a valid point for a reduced bowhunting season.

The season was reduced primarily because personal opinion swayed the vote, not valid biological data. None of the arguments presented for shortening season has validity in biological data. Therefore, all of them combined don't increase the validity. It's kind of like this mathematical equation:
0 + 0 + 0 + 0 = 0

By the way, you used the term ". . . hunters who hunt outside season . . ."
Those people are not hunters, they are poachers; poachers are law breakers, law breakers are outlaws. We should never refer to anyone who willfully violates game laws as hunters. The news media does that from time to time and it is totally inaccurate.

[Sister]

I stand corrected!! another lesson learned....

[xring]

Could any of this be a result of QDM and the liberal doe harvest that everyone wanted when it was first concieved, you know quality bucks behind every tree, quality being antlers reaching skyward and wide enough to drag down a standing corn crop with, until that time we had all that has been taken away, our deer herd was increasing, our kill numbers were up almost every year and everyone was happy it seemed until realtree outdoors showed us the way to real happiness. Tell me it ain't related.

I think that if I were sitting on this commission and the deer herd was dwindling as a result of past management practices, and a cut was needed to rekindle the herd, it would be accross the board, some from each of the users, not just the gun hunters and the muzzle loaders but the bowhunters as well, even though, like now, they will be the most vocal of the group, just as I'm sure they were when QDM was first concieved.

Before you peg me as a gun hunting nut, my favorite season is the bow season, I bowhunted Arkansas before most of you were born, and have taken more deer with a bow than a gun. The ole saw about "you have to pay the fiddler if your going to dance" is very true here, only the price we are having to pay the fiddler is much higher than most of us wanted to pay. Or, the song wasn't what we wanted to hear.

I think it is time to rethink the QDM thingy, if it is working in this area, continue with it, if it ain't working, do something different and get on with it.
So, what I am trying to say is take from all if thats what it takes, and when its time to give, give to all. xring

[DODGEMAN]

Xring, I think you hit the nail on the head. I am sure all of the cuts were in direct relation to the deer kills being down and everyone wondering where the deer went. The thing is everyone wants both ends of the cake, we all want trophy bucks and we all want to see lots of deer, or at least that is what I want. According to the proposed deer regulations some of the seasons are slowly coming back, and we now may finally have an additional youth season, which I think is great. And I feel eventually the archery season will come back.

Just some thoughts from East LA. Jeff

[rickie self]

That we all need to give, to make up for past overharvest , will be on bowhunters part mostly symbolic due to not helping resources much. But, I can see resentment from other hunters if only they give. I accept that as best reason I've heard yet.

[Keith de Noble]

That we all need to give, to make up for past overharvest , will be on bowhunters part mostly symbolic due to not helping resources much. But, I can see resentment from other hunters if only they give. I accept that as best reason I've heard yet.

Rickie,

It's been a long day and I'm trying to follow your conversation. Would you explain or state it another way so this old buzzard can understand it better?

Thanks,

Keith

[Keith de Noble]

Could any of this be a result of QDM and the liberal doe harvest that everyone wanted when it was first concieved, you know quality bucks behind every tree, . . .

. . .

I think it is time to rethink the QDM thingy, if it is working in this area, continue with it, if it ain't working, do something different and get on with it.
So, what I am trying to say is take from all if thats what it takes, and when its time to give, give to all. xring


X-Ring:

Seasons were cut for modern gun, muzzleloader, and bow. Last year, in some zones, modern gun and muzzleloader got some of their days back, bowhunters did not.

Proposed for this year is more days for both modern gun and muzzleloader in several zones. There is nothing being restored for bowhunting.

Last year, bowhunting was further restricted with the loss of baiting after January 15. This was a decision of the full commission. Please remember, bowhunting has not gotten back what it lost because of personal opinion, and personal observations - not biological research and valid data.

I believe QDM is a viable management tool, in many instances. It may not work in some areas, and I don't believe it to be a blanket, all encompassing tool.

Like us bowhunters, biologists are, or should be, learning more about the sport and the resource.

I think you've made a lot of good points, and like you, I'm frustrated with this entire situation. It should never have happened, but it did.

Keith

[rickie self]

My previous post read kinda crazy , X talked about past over harvest , and all hunters should sacrifice to remedy. I was trying to say any cutting down of bow season would mostly be symbolic due to such low harvest. Bow hunting has least effect on resources of all types of hunting. If we sacrifice two weeks it will pacify other hunters that we are also doing our part.And that's all..

[Keith de Noble]

My previous post read kinda crazy , X talked about past over harvest , and all hunters should sacrifice to remedy. I was trying to say any cutting down of bow season would mostly be symbolic due to such low harvest. Bow hunting has least effect on resources of all types of hunting. If we sacrifice two weeks it will pacify other hunters that we are also doing our part.And that's all..

Rickie: I thing it's getting clearer now. You're right - bowhunters have little impact, so keeping bowhunting season short should have virtually no impact on the herd.

Since bowhunters aren't hurting the herd, then it become an issue of opportunity. When I read the AGF Mission Statement, then I see this whole season reduction issue as a loss of opportunity without any valid basis. I haven't been able to see it any other way.

Keith

[F B]

I see it the same way you do.

Its a loss of opportunity.

If it were simply overharverst, you could "save" about as many or more deer by taking one day off modern gun season than you could by closing the whole month of February to bowhunters.

According to the last issue of the game and fish magazine, deer killed in January and February amounted to only 1% of the total harvest. Since that figure is for both months the numbers killed the last two weeks in February cant be enough to make a difference in the big picture.

And I think thats the main reason bowhunters are so vocal about these cuts.

They are based solely on personal beliefs and have done basically nothing to help our deer herd.

Who knows, a few years down the road we might get a Commissioner who thinks baiting is unethical all the time (instead of the current group who seem to only think its unetchical the last 30 days of the season) and he might get baiting shut down all together.

Or we might get one who thinks gun season is too long so he pushes to cut a week or two off of it.

It could happen.

[Keith de Noble]

FB,

You've made a lot of good points here. Each year we wonder who will be the new commissioner and how well that person will work with the others and the staff.

The most we can hope is for each commissioner to adhere to the principal of the words of the Mission Statement. If a commissioner puts those words first, instead of personal beliefs, then we are much more likely to see good solid decisions come forth on most, if not all, issues.

Keith

[bwhntr]

originally posted by Keith......The most we can hope is for each commissioner to adhere to the principal of the words of the Mission Statement. If a commissioner puts those words first, instead of personal beliefs then we are much more likely to see good solid decisions come forth on most, if not all, issues.

very well stated.........

[xring]

The point I was trying to make was,,Since QDM our days afield have dwindled, our kill numbers are down, our herd is down, at least in this area, less deer means less opportunity for ALL hunters. I would bet that Bowhunters were the most vocal group in support of QDM, as bowhunters tend to be the younger segment of the hunting community and probally the most active in supporting a cause. Now that there is less deer for all hunters, all hunters should be restricted, not just the ones who take the most deer. I think bowhunters came out on the LONG end of the stick, they lost 2 weeks of a 5 month season, Gun hunters lost half of their entire season, so precentage wise, Bow hunters didn't do to badly, muzzleloaders didn't fair to well either, just a few days left from the original days alloted.

Since this is primarily a bowhunting board, I don't expect my opinion to be welcomed by the majority, but at least you have it,,my opinion that is!

You can bet if I was sitting on the comissioners board, that is how I would have voted, I would have cut all or none, some from each segment. xring

[Keith de Noble]

xring:

With respect to time afield, then percentage of time lost was greater for modern gun and muzzleloader. True, the bowhunters lost a much smaller percentage. However, time afield is not the only factor in the game management equation.

A far more significant factor is the harvest data. Bowhunter's impact on the herd in the number of harvested deer for the days lost is a miniscule number compared to the harvest data in just one day of modern gun hunting.

I feel we should be careful to consider all the factors in the game management process, not just one such as time, or another such as the personal opinion based on very limited personal observations expressed by a commissioner.

Further, I, and many other people, feel AGF may well have over-reacted with the significant season reductions taken a couple years ago. One thing that certainly has come out of all that is this: We got a lot of ticked off hunters around the state - but we've got very few answers.

That's why I'm in favor of hunter involvement in acquiring deer data. I will cooperate as fully as possible. If we all work together on these projects, then maybe we can have better future herd management with maximum opportunity for all hunting methods. That would be a lot better than what we have now!!!

[xring]

This conversation would never had taken place without QDM, We had long seasons, a good healthy deer population, some darn fine bucks roaming the woods of this great state, but WE seen fit to change all this, we wanted bigger and better, well, we got something, but bigger and better is not what I have seen. We are all equally to blame, at least those of us who listened to talk of QUALITY deer management, and I was one of the first to sign up, Now no one knows, or if they do they aren't talking, what the next step is in this QDM thing.
If we continue with this much longer our seasons will we shorter, our kill rates lower, our hunter numbers will drop,,more,,where will it end?

I understand the loss of two weeks at the end of Feburary will do little to hurt the big picture of deer hunting in Arkansas, but put yourself in a commissioners shoes for a minute, can he cut all from the modern gun and muzzleloaders seasons with out taking from the bowhunters as well? Try an remember that no cuts would have been necessary without QDM, then try to remember that the ones crying "foul" now was also the ones urgeing QDM in the first place. Just think, if this trend continues, a few more years we may have to make more cuts, take the other half of the gun hunters season and another 2 weeks off the bow season, Lets see,, that would be 0 days for modern gun and muzzleloaders and only 4 months of bow season. xring

[jp]

Cant Remember, But Besides The 3 Point Rule, What Are The Major Differences Between Season Lengthsand Bag Limits Now As Opposed To Season Lengths And Bag Limits Pre-qdm?

[xring]

jp. I can't remember exactly either, but to say it is half what it used to be for modern gun would be close, about half for muzzleloaders and a whooping 14 days less for the bowhunters, who had approximately 150 days before.

This being said, I don't hear the ADHA or anyone else demanding that the gun hunters be alloted there entire season back, only the bowhunters. All I hear from the bowhunters is how one day of gun hunting depleted the deer herd and a year long season of bowhunting dosen't hurt.

Sounds like we may better eliminate the modern gun hunting completely and open bow season year round.

[F B]

The argument can be made, and the statistics prove, that the number of deer taken the last two weeks of February by bowhunters is minimal.

The argument can be made, and the statistics prove, that the number of deer taken in a week or two of modern gun season is pretty significant.

But what I agree with you about is that none of this was a problem before QDM and the statewide 4 doe limit by any method was put in place and allowed to, at least in my opinion, and in some areas, go on for too long.

Now everybody is paying the price with shorter seasons and a reduced bag limit.

As for the ADHA, I dont know what their stance is on the subject or if they even have one yet.

Its still a new organization that I think we need to give a little more time to get up and running before we start expecting too much from them.

[xring]

[QUOTE=F B]

But what I agree with you about is that none of this was a problem before QDM and the statewide 4 doe limit by any method was put in place and allowed to, at least in my opinion, and in some areas, go on for too long.

QUOTE]

That is the point I have been trying to make this whole time. That and the same ones who are so vocal about loseing 2 weeks of THEIR season are also the ones who were in support of the thing that got us the restricted seasons, myself included. I'd just like to see something on the management plan for the future.

I accept the fact that cuts were necessay to bring our herd back up in this area, I accept the fact that our limit will be only one buck, but I also believe that the same ones who yelled the loudest for the QDM thing should also reap the harvest, less opportunity.

Of course this is a personal opinion, being a bowhunter and a gun hunter, I have no axe to grind, just seems to me that lost opportunity should be shared equally by all. xring

[DODGEMAN]

I agree X, I think if the deer numbers continue to be stable, I would like to see a management plan for our deer herd for the next several years.

[F B]

You can add me to the list too.

I was all in favor of antler restrictions and everything else till I started seeing the results, ie shorter seasons and a lower bag limit.

[Earnhardt fan #1]

You know I printed that letter off and took it to work and asked guys to read it to tell me how they saw it in their eyes. You know they all saw it as 'his agenda and his only.Now why is that?

[Keith de Noble]

You know I printed that letter off and took it to work and asked guys to read it to tell me how they saw it in their eyes. You know they all saw it as 'his agenda and his only.Now why is that?

Could it be the wording? Could it be the attitude of the words? Could it be the personality? Could it be true? - You bet it could be!

[Keith de Noble]

I understand the loss of two weeks at the end of Feburary will do little to hurt the big picture of deer hunting in Arkansas, but put yourself in a commissioners shoes for a minute, can he cut all from the modern gun and muzzleloaders seasons with out taking from the bowhunters as well? xring

xring - you make some good points and you make some with which I can not agree. Not that you're necessarily wrong, I just see it different.

First of all, I'm not certain QDM is THE culprit in the reduction of seasons. Personally, I feel AGF reacted too quickly with the drastic cuts in seasons. Further, I feel some areas had too liberal bag limits and some areas were too restricted. However, these two points are made on non-professional observations.

Is Arkansas' herd management as good as it can be? - No!
Is QDM the answer to the future? - No, not everywhere, but in places it could be a benefit.
Are current deer zones ideal for our herd? - I don't think so.

As I've stated before, we don't know all that is needed to have the best possible herd management. So, I don't expect our professionals to have all the answers, but I'm sure willing to do my part for the future.

By the way, I've often tried to put myself in the shoes of the commissioners. This I can say for certain, I would not have any personal agenda, and I would adhere to the words and spirit of the Mission Statement.

[xring]

xring - you make some good points and you make some with which I can not agree. Not that you're necessarily wrong, I just see it different.

First of all, I'm not certain QDM is THE culprit in the reduction of seasons. Personally, I feel AGF reacted too quickly with the drastic cuts in seasons. Further, I feel some areas had too liberal bag limits and some areas were too restricted. However, these two points are made on non-professional observations.

Is Arkansas' herd management as good as it can be? - No!
Is QDM the answer to the future? - No, not everywhere, but in places it could be a benefit.
Are current deer zones ideal for our herd? - I don't think so.

As I've stated before, we don't know all that is needed to have the best possible herd management. So, I don't expect our professionals to have all the answers, but I'm sure willing to do my part for the future.

By the way, I've often tried to put myself in the shoes of the commissioners. This I can say for certain, I would not have any personal agenda, and I would adhere to the words and spirit of the Mission Statement.

Paragraph #1 I didn't wirte this expecting you to agree, you have the same right as I do to disagree.

Paragraph #2 I believe QDM is the culprit, Just as you pointed out, some areas had too liberial a season, "part of the QDM management" and in disagreement with you I think if the seasons had not been cut when they were our herd would have suffered more than it has already.

Paragraph #3 WE AGREE

Paragraph #4 WE AGREE

Paragraph #5 HUMMMMMM, I believe we all like to think of ourselves as "fair" people, do the right thing people, at least I do. The point I make here is that deep inside each of us we have our own ideals as what life is about, what makes it worth living, I think it is common practice to offer our views to those around us, be it co-workers or friends. Some people are easily swayed while others are more absolute in there thinking. Since I don't know any of the people who are involved in the decision making process at AG&F I have no idea of what transpired when it came time to make the cuts (that I believe were necessary) to the existing seasons and bag limits. But I believe that to take from one group and not take from all groups would have not been a fair way to discharge my duties as a commissioner, so I have to agree with the commissioners and applaud them for the mostly symbolic cut in bow season.
So it seems that we agree to disagree. xring

[Hambone]

Just wondering what response was made to the letter if there was any response at all.

[Earnhardt fan #1]

Hambone I sent him and the rest of the coommissioners a letter and only heard back from Mike, John,and forrest his being the one that is just aeveryday run of the mill thank you for sending it. but its not real concern :smack: :rolleyes:

[Keith de Noble]

Just wondering what response was made to the letter if there was any response at all.

Tom White, ABA Liaison to AGF, authored and sent a letter to AGF expressing the ABA's position on the bowhunting issue. No known direct correspondence was sent by any ABA board members to Nelson. No direct response was written into The Arkansas Bowhunter.

Tom's letter is posted in the ABA section on this site, and in the last issue of The Arkansas Bowhunter posted on www.arkansasbowhunters.org (http://www.arkansasbowhunters.org)

[Hambone]

Good letter by the ABA. Would there be by any chance some one to write a direct rsponse to Nelson, and mail it to him personally. What I mean is a direct rebuttal of his letter explaining to him why it is that you disagree and for what reasons. Not with what the AGFC has in place now but challenging his own words, and responses. I spent a weekend with him and the other commissioners in Nashville, TN for the NWTF National Convention, and for what it is worth I think it would be wise to address him a direct letter in response to his. Not saying it would do any good, but maybe you could address all commissioners personally with a copy of his letter and then a copy of your (ABA) direct response.

I think what has to be understood here as well, and everyone has brought up good points, but the game and fish commission is not about taking, taking, taking, and taking some more like some may fear. The cut for bowseason was a cut to allow a small break for the deer while not affecting the majority of hunters. Sure the harvest numbers in the last two weeks of February were minimal, but while that argument holds water to get those weeks back it can also add fuel for the argument that only a few people hunt during that time of year, and cutting back at that time does not affect the majority of hunters.

I think this topic has been a good one for what it is worth, and there have been statements I agree and disagree with. This is just my two cents worth, but I want to make it clear on the fact that the AGFC is not about taking your hunting away they are trying to manage the best way possible, sometimes good and sometimes bad. I would gladly give back the two weeks of bowseason in February if they would make my gun season 2 weeks in zone 16. 6 weeks in my opinion is too long. I would still like to see the christmas season remain many families are together this time of year.

However the outcome I think a direct respnse in letter form from the ABA or an officer in the ABA is absolutely a must.

Yall have a good weekend.

[CP]

I think this about that...I think...maybe.

One: There has NEVER been a statewide (all zones) four doe, any method harvest allowed. At least not since 1995.
The only MG four doe harvest has been in zones 12 and higher....AND that was for only three seasons out of the last ten.

Have the hunting days been cut drastically......
30 is plenty for an OF, I'm give out after that anyway.
MODERN GUN HUNTING DAYS ZONE 12

1995-----35

1996-----36

1997-----30

1998-----37

1999-----37

2000-----37

2001-----42

2002-----32

2003-----30

2004-----30

[xring]

CP, please post the days for zone 7, if you don't mind. I'd certainly be interested in compareing them and zone, what 12? Thank you. xring

[CP]

X, give me a few minutes to work it up....

[CP]

Here you go....

MG HUNTING DAYS ZONE 6,7,8,10, & 11
1995-----23

1996-----23

1997-----23

1998-----23

1999-----23

2000-----23

2001-----23

2002-----23

2003-----20

2004-----20

[xring]

Thanks CP, I really thought we had lost more days,,SO SORRY,,Just split them up more I guess...xring

[CP]

X, here is another interesting sheet on your area....MG HUNTING DAYS/HARVEST DATA/ ZONE 7 & 11

1995-----23 days-- bucks only

1996-----23 days-- bucks only

1997-----23 days-- bucks only

1998-----23 days-- one antler less

1999-----23 days-- one antler less

2000-----23 days-- zone 7, 2 antler less/ zone 11, one antler less

2001-----23 days-- zone 7, 2 antler less/ zone 11, one antler less

2002-----23 days-- bucks only

2003-----20 days-- bucks only…doe by quota permit

2004-----20 days-- one buck only per zone…doe by quota permit

[xring]

What do they say,,"my bad" :smack: That just goes to show what age will do for you, I feel so much better now that I have all these extra days afield!!

Now I DEMAND that the AG&F return those two weeks to US bowhunters, We have been discriminated against, :frown:

Before anyone points out that I was wrong in my acessment of days afield by the different segments of the hunting world, I KNOW THAT!!:thumb:

By the way, is it proper to use a fork when eating my humble pie?:smack: xxxxring

[CP]

Hell X, don't feel bad...I thought we were both right until I started digging into it....:biggrin:

[Rattle-m-up™]

i knew i was right all along.... :biggrin:

[Keith de Noble]

X-Ring:
I have a fork, spoon, and knife used for my humble pie - they get used quite often.


Hambone:
Earlier on this thread I was quite direct in my words about bringing too much personality into this issue. That is why the majority of my comments speak generally of the commission, rather than any one particular named individual.

Every point Nelson makes in his letter has been refuted many times by me and hundreds of other bowhunters. I believe the ABA's official position of dealing and communicating with the entire commission is the correct approach. To deal publicly with any one particular commissioner could be viewed in many ways, not the least damaging of which, would be to lend credence to ill concieved arguments.

By the way, I am not on the ABA Executive Committee, but I wholly support their position on this issue. The ABA is working for the rights and privileges of all bowhunters, not just members. There is NO valid data, NO valid argument, and NO valid personal opinion to support a continuation of the shortened bowhunting season. It should be reinstated to the full 5 month length.

[Hambone]

Keith...fair enough I see where you are coming from. What would really hold some water with the commission would be to locate each individual bowhunter and take a poll for people wanting the weeks reinstated, those who do not, and those who could care less either way.

I wish there was a way to find all that out. That way there would not be any argument with the commission. I agree with you there are no valid arguments to do away with them (the two weeks). Except for the ones metioned before (save a few deer, less food easy patterns,...etc.) I am one of those guys who don't care either way. I am usually through by the 31st of January anyway, but have been known to hunt in February as well. I don't think there will be a 5 month season for bowhunters just for the sole reason the commission feels it gives the deer a break, and does not affect the majority of bowhunters. I hope for the people who truly need and want those 14 days back I am wrong.

[rickie self]

I still think a large percentage of Non bow hunter's think bow season is to long , without a logical reason . That's the hump to get over...

[Earnhardt fan #1]

Wel the gun and muzzle guys got theirs back for the most part Rick why not even conciter the archery guys to they seem to be left out of that equation don't you think?

I'll ask this out loud now so all can give some more imput.... Why is zones 16,16a and 17 's gun deer seasons 7 to eight weeks long?

[bwhntr]

Could it be because a certain commissioner may hunt that area.. :eek: ..or has friends that do..... :eek:

[Earnhardt fan #1]

Here is what Mike said in the Ask the Commissioners page .....


These zones are primarily composed of private land and their rut is much later than the rest of the state for whatever reason. We have discussed knocking a week or two off of the front of their modern gun season so the total number of days would match but have not decided to do that as of last week.


But or rut around here is also late /early never actually say on time so how could that be just that way????

[BigHorn]

Could it be because a certain commissioner may hunt that area.. :eek: ..or has friends that do..... :eek:

We have a winner, that is exactly the reason.

[Keith de Noble]

I didn't know private land was a consideration in setting seasons.

[Earnhardt fan #1]

Evidently it is :confused:

[bwhntr]

Since when,does the rut govern, how long "gun" season should be. Archery season was cut "short", because the bucks have been through so much pressure by bowhunters,FROM the rut,(as stated by a certain commissioner),here we go again,second verse same as the first....not :cool:

[CP]

Come on guys, you know that both "private lands" and the "rut timing" has been a great factor in the management regulating the lengths and starting dates of our deer season.

This is true in almost every southeastern state and rightfully so. I really think the eastern zones have excessive days in the MG season....but I am jealous......:biggrin:

[Tony Harris]

16, 16A and 17 Muzzle loading Oct. 16-24 (9 days) and Dec.31-Jan. 2 (3 days). 16, 16A and 17 Modern gun Nov. 13-Dec.30 (49 days). Total time for firearm season 61 days.

To be fair Zones 7-11-12 all have the same length Muzzle loading season as the above zones.

Zones 7-11 Modern gun season; Nov.13-21 (9 days), Nov.25-Dec.5 (11 days) Christmas hunt Dec. 26-28 (3 days) For a total of 23 days for MG, total time for firearm season 35 days.

Zone 12 Nov.13 - Dec.12 (30 days) Christmas Hunt Dec. 26-28 (3 days) Total time for firearm season 45 days.

Most land in Arkansas is private so that is another for the 'don't hold water' file.

Muzzle loading has always started BEFORE the main rut so there is another for the 'don't hold water' file.

These season lengths reek of favoritism for the select few in these zones. There is no reason why these zones should have this long of a season when the rest of the state doesn't even though some zones are closer to the river flood plain than zone 16 is. Parts of zones 9, 4A, 5A and 4 are closer and have a restricted season or the same season as the rest of the state so why not these special zones? The lands behind the 'levee' have alway been the area where higher priced clubs abound which means more afluent folks than the common or average deer hunter. I would really like for our commissioners to look into this more closely. Could it be that fewer folks hunt these areas and therefore are given more time to work on balancing the herd? Could it be that because it is in a 'flood prone region' the farmers there need to spend their time getting the crops out and need to have more time to hunt when they can? Could it be that we are as CP said just jealous?

Bottom line... favoritism sucks if you aren't the one gaining the benefit from it.

[rickie self]

Great post, Tony !

[CP]

Tony, You put it all in one sentence........

that "Bottom Line" thingy. :wink:

[xring]

16, 16A and 17 Muzzle loading Oct. 16-24 (9 days) and Dec.31-Jan. 2 (3 days). 16, 16A and 17 Modern gun Nov. 13-Dec.30 (49 days). Total time for firearm season 61 days.

To be fair Zones 7-11-12 all have the same length Muzzle loading season as the above zones.

Zones 7-11 Modern gun season; Nov.13-21 (9 days), Nov.25-Dec.5 (11 days) Christmas hunt Dec. 26-28 (3 days) For a total of 23 days for MG, total time for firearm season 35 days.

Zone 12 Nov.13 - Dec.12 (30 days) Christmas Hunt Dec. 26-28 (3 days) Total time for firearm season 45 days.

Most land in Arkansas is private so that is another for the 'don't hold water' file.



Bottom line... favoritism sucks if you aren't the one gaining the benefit from it.

Yeah, I don't know how they did it but some how I got the shaft, as soon as I find out and get it verified by at least two others I'll be back on here screaming AGAIN!!!!:thumb: